I wish Production wasn't dying

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

I think the reason USPSA screws around with the rules is to help their industry partners sell more Stuff.

Which is exactly why Production was created in the first place!

  

On 7/19/2018 at 6:05 AM, ChuckS said:

From the 22 Jan 2000 BOD minutes:

 

The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors.

 

[Jim Watson]

I know that is what they SAY, but if you read here, new shooters are commonly recommended to shoot their Glocks, etc. in Limited Minor so as to not have to trouble their little brains with a reload every ten shots.  Production has become as much a specialty as Open with barely restricted modifications and huge weight allowance.

 

I think the ten shot limit is a copy of IDPA in response to "grandfathered" full capacity magazines drying up in the second half of the AWB.

I favor opening up Production magazine capacity until Mr O'Rourke takes them away.   

Edited November 22, 2020 by Jim Watson

[B_RAD]

18 hours ago, konkapot said:

Mixed feelings. 

 

It seems that a some shooters want to take the easy route. 

 

They don't want to aim. Or plan reloads. Or do basic stage breakdown. Or draw from a holster. In trying to make it "Easier" they end up missing out on what makes this sport what it is. 

 

Production includes everything this sport is about. 

Not sure it's easier?  I mean, because of the advantages you get from the dot and higher rounds in the mag, the speed has to be picked up quite a bit to be competitive. I also think you have to maximize the higher rounds count. Meaning if you can be doing something while moving position to position you need to. In production the reloads are very critical. In CO if you can blend something together, you'll lose PPSif you don't.

 

So, yes, it may be easier to take a 25 yrd shot, but to stay competitive, you have to do it faster. While getting the same pts. 

 

 

IMO CO is faster and that's the appeal. It's like open but not as expensive and requires almost zero tweaking of gear like on open. 

 

And then there's the old eyes argument. 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by B_RAD

[BritinUSA]

12 hours ago, Southpaw said:

Agreed.  CO really took off when they dropped the 10 round limit.

 

CO may have taken off without the change to round-count, we'll never know. If I recall, the division was provisional in the middle of the year which would I think limit the number of people who would consider a switch part-way through the season. Production division took about 2 years before it really started to take off in USA, CO was not given the same allowance.

 

Significant changes were made very early that may or may not have had an impact, this went awry from the BOD policy of small incremental changes.

 

I agree that USPSA's direction with CO is the benefit to vendors, rather than the sport.

[R.Elliott]

I'm in Canada were everything is ten rounds.  Production Optics seems to be gaining in leaps and bounds here, in spite of the magazine limits. I think the eyes thing is a big part of it, especially where about five months of the year is indoor shooting in crappy indoor light. Also, I think many are looking at it as almost an Open Light division, where you can shoot quite a bit faster without having to drop 14 grand on an Open gun. I actually got cometely out of Open and went to Production Optics (Prodopen?). It's definitely a lot less hassle for me. 

[rowdyb]

The people who say "CO is easier than Prod" are really saying it is easier for them to shoot the same points and time with a CO gun as they would a Prod gun. Well yeah, if you change to a better tool it is easier to get the job done in the same time for the same result. As @B_RAD rightly pointed out, that is a much different thing than trying to utilize something to its best ability within its division. Shooting a CO gun to equal or better your Prod performance isn't that big of a stretch. Shooting a CO gun to beat other CO guns is definitely not "easier".

 

As someone currently transitioning to CO from years in Prod, it is shocking how much faster I have to shoot to stay with good A and M shooters. Dot? What dot? It is almost always just a streak, constantly in movement. And yet having a single focal plane down at the target still makes it easier to see with my crappy eyes than I ever could with traditional iron sights.

[belus]

4 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Fewer people would leave Prod if it was IPSC capacity at 15 rounds. BUT I doubt there would be a net gain in the division. The only way to increase Prod would be to roll SS into it, hahahaha.

 

 

[mvmojo]

22 hours ago, Sarge said:

With the average age of the typical weekend warrior being old enough to have vision issues start creeping in the introduction of CO is what’s killing Production. With Open guns being so expensive, prescription glasses were preferred to stay with iron sights. But cheap dot guns changed all that

Nailed it!

[konkapot]

@Rowdy-Exactly my point. Most of these guys are not looking to shoot better......just easier. They're not looking to maximize the platform.

[nasty618]

Agreed with rowdy and b_rad 100%. 

Personally, I love Production.  I dedicated last two years to it, at a pretty high level of participation and got to a good point.  So I am also sad to see the participation drop so drastically.  But I don't want to be competing against one or two other guys at a 100 person match, with maybe 10-15 shooters in my division. 

 

So I am ready to reset the prestige level and start from scratch (well, maybe not completely from scratch) and get my ass handed to me all over again.  

 

I say embrace the changes and ride the wave to the next iteration of your hobby.  Love the suck, let it drive your motivation to get better, get faster... or at least keep trying.  All the local heat is in Carry Optics now.  So maybe one more Prod Nationals for me... But then it's on to CO.

 

Edit to add - 15 rd or 140mm mag in Prod would make my transition to CO even quicker or easier. It's either 10 or its not Production, for me.

Edited November 23, 2020 by nasty618

[AverageJoeShooting]

this is an age old argument, but im not sure why production was ever set to 10 rounds, when they had L10 and SS. production in the true-ist sense is picking a gun up out of a box and shooting it.  if i choose to pick a glock 34 with a 15 rd mag or a canik with a 19 rd mag or a walther with a 10 rd mag all would play a part in the competitiveness of the division.  then again what do i know, i shot 1 production match with a shadow 2 and hated reloading so much i just went out and bought an open gun where i remain to this day.  maybe you can make the argument that there is less recoil and less reloads and a dot with open which for some makes it easier, but you have to do everything so much faster to even be competitive.  for example the new 20 series classifiers. for one of them (cant remember which) an A hit factor score is like 8.96 for a stage with 7 targets.  GM level hit factor is like 12 which is basically moving impossible fast and still getting all your points. i love single stack and i think that if you want the challenge of reloading and stage planning you should shoot one of the divisions that already exist with a 10 rd cap.  

[IHAVEGAS]

On 11/21/2020 at 2:04 PM, waktasz said:

Production is interesting to me because the 10 round limit changes the sport so much. 

 

Yep. When I switched back to limited for a time it felt like I was missing out on a lot of what I enjoyed, when you hit your reloads slick and feel pressure not to miss that steel and force a reload that is the good stuff. 

 

I would like to see the limited division rules tweaked to allow big stick mags in limited minor for those that do not enjoy the planning/reloading/accuracy challenge of low capacity shooting. Limited major would need to retain some advantage to prevent devaluation of existing guns but I can't see a 9mm big stick changing much besides making room for those folks who hate reloads. 

 

 

 

 

 

[DirkD]

On 11/21/2020 at 6:26 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What do you think would happen to CO if its capacity was equalized with Production's?

 

Assuming that happened, would you prefer both at 10 or both at 15?

USPSA isn't going to change a division equipment rule that would make people's existing gear (Mags, extensions etc.) illegal for the division.

They relax rules rather than make them more restrictive and making peoples gear illegal.

15 rounds doesn't make much sense, when the stages have 8 rounds per view max, either leave it at 10 rounds, or go to mag length, I don't see production ever changing from 10 rounds or Carry Optics reducing capacity.

Nothing wrong with 10 rounds in Production, if you don't like it, shoot limited.

[Thomas H]

Maybe nationally Production may be dying (though I don't actually think so), but it certainly isn't happening locally.

 

At our local club, Production is (as usual) the second-largest division by a significant amount. 

 

In our Section, Limited has the most participation, with Production and Carry Optics almost matching for the second place spot.

 

Production and Limited this year have almost the exact same percentage of activity participation as they had last year.    PCC, SS, and Open are all down slightly---with CO increasing as much as those three collectively reduced.  (Rev stayed about the same, but that's because there are only a couple of guys that shoot it, and they'll never change.)

 

I'm a Production guy who has recently (in the last two years) switched to CO.  Like many, if my eyes were what they used to be, I'd probably still be shooting Production.  (And I still periodically shoot Production.)  However, given my eyes, AND the increases in technology plus the guns available, it is no surprise to me that many more people are shooting it.  Dots are fun, and lots more people are pushing them on handguns for all sorts of reasons.  (And I'll note that I think that the change from 10 rounds to 140mm was brilliant, and it obviously worked.)

 

I think it is perfectly okay to let people have fun however they like, so telling people they aren't having fun right because they are in a division that doesn't require as many reloads and a different type of stage planning seems....odd.  Especially if those people weren't saying it to Open and Limited shooters before.  (And if they were, why?)

 

At local matches, some guy comes in to try the sport.  He's got a stock 9mm, so we tell him to shoot Limited Minor his first time, to get an idea how this works, and then to talk to people about their gear.  A ton of those guys, if they come back, head into Production because they don't have a dot gun and don't want to get one.  In our Section, at least, this hasn't changed.

 

 

[Silver_Surfer]

Recently switched to CO because having a hard time focusing on the irons.  Old Eyes

[Stony Lane]

One of our local matches has talked about a Production, Single Stack, Revolver ONLY match.  If a number of clubs did this once a year it would certainly add some variety.  

[motosapiens]

I feel the same way, only about SS dying.

 

I disagree with those that say low-cap divisions are more 'technical'. I think the opposite is true. Low-cap often means there is only 1 non-retarded way to shoot a stage, and it often takes shooting-on-the-move almost completely out of the equation. With fewer reloads you get more opportunities to shave time, make risk-reward decisions, etc... And it puts far more emphasis on being fast and efficient at everything.

 

I mostly shoot Ltd and SS, But for the second winter in a row I'm doing CO, for a change of pace, and to learn. I'm not at all interested in loud, expensive, fragile open guns, but I find CO quite appealing because the guns are cheap and reliable and very similar to what people carry concealed or on-duty for actual defensive use. The equipment allows me to go faster and more accurately, but it also *forces* me to do that in order to not suck. I found last winter that made me a better shooter all-around.

 

 

[GrumpyOne]

Admittedly, there are stages where there is only 1 good way to shoot Production, but, I don't think that is the norm. The 10 round limit makes you get creative on your stage planning, giving you many options on how to shoot it and where to reload. I've seen much more diversity in how a stage is shot in Production than in any other division. Just watch a number of Production shooters shoot a stage versus an Open or Limited shooter. For instance, how many times have you seen an Open or Limited shooter draw up on a target, fire twice, drop a mag and run to the next array? 

[cheby]

I think low hit factor stages are easier in general to be competitive because any mistakes including make up shots on steel for example would cost you more on high hit factor stages. This is just how the scoring system works...

As a long time production shooter myself I feel the same. I did switch to limited just because I got tired of broken dots.

 

However, to me, the biggest thing that killed production wad those 50oz "production" guns that are essentially limited guns. When everything was allowed by those infamous emails what is the point of different divisions???

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by cheby

[shred]

 

44 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

. With fewer reloads you get more opportunities to shave time, make risk-reward decisions, etc... And it puts far more emphasis on being fast and efficient at everything.

I like Major scoring because it gives you even more options for that... CO "looks like" Open, but really isn't.

Some people's idea of a "shooting sport" involves lots of reloads, some don't.

People are never going to all agree.  It's why there's a zillion different auto racing leagues.

 

 

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

Maybe nationally Production may be dying (though I don't actually think so), but it certainly isn't happening locally.

 

At our local club, Production is (as usual) the second-largest division by a significant amount. 

 

In our Section, Limited has the most participation, with Production and Carry Optics almost matching for the second place spot.

 

Production and Limited this year have almost the exact same percentage of activity participation as they had last year.    PCC, SS, and Open are all down slightly---with CO increasing as much as those three collectively reduced.  (Rev stayed about the same, but that's because there are only a couple of guys that shoot it, and they'll never change.)

 

I'm a Production guy who has recently (in the last two years) switched to CO.  Like many, if my eyes were what they used to be, I'd probably still be shooting Production.  (And I still periodically shoot Production.)  However, given my eyes, AND the increases in technology plus the guns available, it is no surprise to me that many more people are shooting it.  Dots are fun, and lots more people are pushing them on handguns for all sorts of reasons.  (And I'll note that I think that the change from 10 rounds to 140mm was brilliant, and it obviously worked.)

 

I think it is perfectly okay to let people have fun however they like, so telling people they aren't having fun right because they are in a division that doesn't require as many reloads and a different type of stage planning seems....odd.  Especially if those people weren't saying it to Open and Limited shooters before.  (And if they were, why?)

 

At local matches, some guy comes in to try the sport.  He's got a stock 9mm, so we tell him to shoot Limited Minor his first time, to get an idea how this works, and then to talk to people about their gear.  A ton of those guys, if they come back, head into Production because they don't have a dot gun and don't want to get one.  In our Section, at least, this hasn't changed.

 

 

 

Seems to be locale dependant. Since I've been in Florida there is only one poor soul shooting Production at any of the 4 clubs I've been to so far. 

[Thomas H]

59 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

Seems to be locale dependant. Since I've been in Florida there is only one poor soul shooting Production at any of the 4 clubs I've been to so far. 

 

That's wild!  Out here, Production is really, really common.

 

Was it always a low-turnout division?  Or has it dropped that much in the last year or two?

 

[cheby]

In my area, production was the most popular and competitive division 4 yeas ago. It went south quickly. There are 3-4 people still shouting production here while CO gets easier 30-40 for a club match

[waktasz]

11 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

That's wild!  Out here, Production is really, really common.

 

Was it always a low-turnout division?  Or has it dropped that much in the last year or two?

 

 

I just got here 2 months ago so I can't really say. Up in PA where I came from it's pretty popular but CO is definitely taking people away from it

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, shred said:

 

I like Major scoring because it gives you even more options for that... CO "looks like" Open, but really isn't.

 

 

 

true story. due to old age, infirmity, and being an 'overaimer', I like minor scoring.