I wish Production wasn't dying

[j1b]

This is purely selfish by me ... it's the division that I primarily shoot and thus it's the division I prefer. 

 

Clearly participation is shifting from production to carry optics.

 

I've heard it said that carry optics are a poor man's open and maybe that's why it appeals to me less. Centuries ago when I started shooting I was an open shooter. I did all the fancy comps and high cap mags and optics ... I played all the caliber games and tried all the platforms... so for me that's all kind of water under the bridge. When Limited division started back then I really liked it because it started to once again begin testing a lot of different components of the shooting. Stage strategy, reloading, gauging risk and reward with shots etc. etc.

 

To me that's what production is in USPSA shooting today. I shot a match today with some good friends. Two of us shooting production, and two shooting carry optics (one of them normally being a production shooter) and it was a ton of fun. The poking and joking were prevalent ... and fun. I'd frequently get "do you know how many times I'm gonna reload on this stage???" And I'd smirk and say "NONE!" So it was all in good fun. I would say I feel the pressure of reloads at a match pretty exponentially. I know when I plan them well and hit them well that you feel great about "staying competitive" (a relative term I know) with the field whereas you miss a couple and you (or I at least) can feel like ... "ugh ... if I only had the capacity"

 

But I like production. I like the notion that for the most part the guns are pretty stock. Not a lot to them. Not a lot of money to dump into them to play. Stage planning is critical. Points are critical. Hard shots are harder. Reloading is at a premium. Sometimes you have to reload after 4 shots or something ... that's the strategy. All of this still does exist with any other division ... I do get that. It's not like when I was an open shooter that stage strategy wasn't critical. It just feels exasperated in production. At least that's my feeling. And of course stage designs have to be built to cater to all divisions... particularly the more popular divisions like CO and the rising PCC presence. 

 

I'm certain someday I will convert to the Carry Optics dark side. Like so many others. I like trying to be competitive and shooting production at most matches makes that more and more difficult to do. And my eyes get worse and worse. It almost feels like by the day. And honestly .... I just don't shoot like I used to so the advantage of that little optic would likely serve as a slight crutch to that as well. 

 

But I like production and seeing participation decline like it has ... well ... it's been disheartening. Clearly it is just me ... but still. Kinda wish the division I shoot in was still the hot place to be.

 

I'll be holding on to the production reins as long as I can. It's still really fun to me and at the end of the day we are all just competing within ourselves. 

 

Gripe fest over.

 

J

[MHicks]

I've  been primarily  SS shooter although I have started shooting some limited. It is amazing to see how quickly production numbers have dropped in some regions. Some matches I've looked at still have quite a few production shooters but other matches there's hardly any. 

[waktasz]

I feel the same way, even though I'm shooting CO now and haven't shot Production once since 2018 Nationals

 

[SGT_Schultz]

I think there is only one way to stop Production's death spiral and maybe even bring the participation numbers between both into some semblance of balance (if that even matters):  bring it to parity with CO in magazine capacity

 

That can be done in one of two ways

1. Let Production use 141 mm magazines (cue all the limited minor retarded arguments)
2. Limit Production and Carry Optics to a common capacity that fits in most OEM magazines.  This can be 10 rounds like in the past, or 15 to be in line with IPSC.

I'm not going back to Production (where I started) even if CO magazine capacity is reduced because iron sights suck when you have presbyopia.  Conversely, I'll still shoot CO if its magazine capacity is reduced to match Production.

 

I have zero interest in either Open or Limited.

Edited November 21, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[waktasz]

Production is interesting to me because the 10 round limit changes the sport so much. If it was 140mm mags it's pretty much like every other division. Keep it separate, even if participation is falling off.

[RJH]

I feel for you OP. While i don't shoot production,  I like SS and L10 a bunch, but those have less participation in most areas than Production, so i rarely shoot them.  Last couple of matches i shot, i just signed up limited but shot my SS gear, wasn't winning the Cadillac either way

[Sarge]

With the average age of the typical weekend warrior being old enough to have vision issues start creeping in the introduction of CO is what’s killing Production. With Open guns being so expensive, prescription glasses were preferred to stay with iron sights. But cheap dot guns changed all that

[TonytheTiger]

I wish 3 gun wasn't dying. How's that saying go? Wish into one hand and s#!t in the other, see which one fills up first.

[konkapot]

Mixed feelings. 

 

It seems that a some shooters want to take the easy route. 

 

They don't want to aim. Or plan reloads. Or do basic stage breakdown. Or draw from a holster. In trying to make it "Easier" they end up missing out on what makes this sport what it is. 

 

Production includes everything this sport is about. 

[shred]

I don't even think the dot is the main reason CO is eating PD's lunch.   People like shooting 9mm.  People like shooting hicaps.  The dot is just gravy.

 

Limited Minor is more popular than the three smallest divisions (Revo, SS, L10) put together, even though its noncompetitive in the overalls.  Open Minor never had any interest.  CO didn't get much action when it was limited to 10 rounds either.

 

"easy button" seems to be where it's at these days.   If you want technical, grab a single-stack .45 and start planning...

 

 

[rowdyb]

I feel exactly the same way. Prod is where I've spent 90% of my USPSA shooting. CO seems to have a deeper talent pool at more matches, of any level (I said seems, have no proof) than Production.

 

Attendance at local matches made me switch to CO after Factory Gun nats last month. The joy I felt at clearly seeing a sighting system and doing only one reload per stage is probably going to keep me there. (But I've said that before and have always gone back to Prod.....)

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, waktasz said:

Production is interesting to me because the 10 round limit changes the sport so much. If it was 140mm mags it's pretty much like every other division. Keep it separate, even if participation is falling off.

 

What do you think would happen to CO if its capacity was equalized with Production's?

 

Assuming that happened, would you prefer both at 10 or both at 15?

Edited November 21, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, shred said:

 If you want technical, grab a single-stack .45 revolver and start planning...

 

FIFY

Edited November 21, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, konkapot said:

It seems that a some shooters want to take the easy route. 

 

They don't want to aim. Or plan reloads. Or do basic stage breakdown. Or draw from a holster. In trying to make it "Easier" they end up missing out on what makes this sport what it is.

 

I haven't seen anyone like that, either in Production or CO.  Or in limited, revolver, open, or single stack for that matter.....

[waktasz]

48 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What do you think would happen to CO if its capacity was equalized with Production's?

 

Assuming that happened, would you prefer both at 10 or both at 15?

 

I think board members would be dragged out of their homes and murdered if USPSA decides NOW to screw with the most popular division

[zzt]

2 hours ago, shred said:

I don't even think the dot is the main reason CO is eating PD's lunch.   People like shooting 9mm.  People like shooting hicaps.  The dot is just gravy.

 

Limited Minor is more popular than the three smallest divisions (Revo, SS, L10) put together, even though its noncompetitive in the overalls.  Open Minor never had any interest.  CO didn't get much action when it was limited to 10 rounds either.

 

"easy button" seems to be where it's at these days.   If you want technical, grab a single-stack .45 and start planning...

 

 

 

I think it must vary by region.  When I first started shooting USPSA ( Limited major) I always wondered why there were so many Open minor shooters.  The reason was they were old and could not see sights anymore.  So they put a dot on whatever they were shooting and shot Open.  Geez!  I did the same thing with my Limited pistol.  I put a dovetail mounted dot on it and shot in Open in SCSA.  For USPSA I bout a used Open gun and shot major.  At some point, even with special glasses, stick on diopters and the like, it just becomes a PITA.

 

Around me, CO picked up a lot of the old Open minor shooters.  It made sense.  CO really took off with the rules change.  It is essentially Limited minor with no scoring penalty.  If I were making the irons to dot transition today, I'd definitely go CO with the current rules.  Super fun without the expense of race guns.  Geez, I could build three full out race CO guns for just one of my custom Open guns cost.  AND I could shoot factory ammo if I chose.

 

I'll also note there are a lot of your Production shooters at the clubs I shoot at.  By young I mean younger than me.  I quit shooting irons at 68.

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What do you think would happen to CO if its capacity was equalized with Production's?

 

Assuming that happened, would you prefer both at 10 or both at 15?

My worthless opinion; I was okay with CO at 10 rounds, I enjoyed the challenge even when I was the only one doing it in 2014 .
 

If it was going to change then my preference would have been to move to 15 for both CO and Production, this at least keeps another aspect of these divisions in line with IPSC.

 

Using 140mm magazines was, I think just a lazy solution by USPSA. I think having so many rounds available, makes the division easier. There was that balance between speed and accuracy that really comes into play with fewer rounds. I think going to 140mm lowers the challenges to the division.

 

Either way its too late now. I think at the start, the BOD was going to make small incremental changes to the division but that plan went out the window.

[MHicks]

I've never shot with a red dot and the few I've looked through have that star effect, not a clear dot. But this is with prescription shooting glasses with focus on the front sight. Do you see the dot better with regular distance prescriptions?  Also I understand that all dots are not the same and you may need to adjust brightness settings.

[BritinUSA]

If you see a star effect then you have astigmatism, its not noticeable by most people until you look at small lights.

My prescription is set for distance, so focus on targets and the dot seems sharp to me.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

I've never shot with a red dot and the few I've looked through have that star effect, not a clear dot. But this is with prescription shooting glasses with focus on the front sight.

 

You need to forget everything you know about shooting vision when you switch to a red dot.  The first thing you would need to do is to throw away those special glasses.

 

There is only one focal plane: the one where the target is.  You only need correction to see it clearly.

[shred]

I had glasses made to take out the astygmatism but still target focus.  Several top dot shooters I know use something similar.  But you rarely need (or want) to see a nice still round dot anyway in USPSA.

[MHicks]

Next time I get a chance I'll have to try my regular glasses. Thanks.

[Southpaw]

6 hours ago, shred said:

I don't even think the dot is the main reason CO is eating PD's lunch.   People like shooting 9mm.  People like shooting hicaps.  The dot is just gravy.

 

Agreed.  CO really took off when they dropped the 10 round limit.

 

Only two things can be done to increase activity in Production:

 

1.  Increase Production capacity

2.  A new federal mag capacity ban

[rowdyb]

Fewer people would leave Prod if it was IPSC capacity at 15 rounds. BUT I doubt there would be a net gain in the division. The only way to increase Prod would be to roll SS into it, hahahaha.

[Jim Watson]

I think the reason USPSA screws around with the rules is to help their industry partners sell more Stuff.