I wish Production wasn't dying

[SGT_Schultz]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:34 PM, PatJones said:

They're kinda convenient when you're the only shooter in your division. Gotta measure progress somehow.

 

Can use PS to compare yourself to a similar division.  Like a revo shooter comparing himself against Production shooter.

[nasty618]

2 hours ago, j1b said:

for these shooters high overall is in fact important.  If they don't win it, then they know that either someone else shot to their full potential or they did not. 

 

If they are actually good AND understand the game (note that one can be a good shooter yet be very simple about their game knowledge and strategy), it is not and should not be important to them.  That's also not the take away that should have after a match you describe.  

 

Let me try a different way.  This will probably be a bad analogy, but... Imagine you're a hobbyist drag racer. You compete in Stock class.  You buddy is competing in the Funny Car class.  You both race in the quarter mile... you both get measured in time... it almost as if you're playing the same game and should compare yourself against his time, right?  But you're not.   

 

Look, I am not trying to red pill anyone who has been playing this game for a long time and still thinks that overall results matter. I find it difficult to convince people who are set in their ways.  And it really doesn't matter to me what folks think about overall results.  But that's just a simple fact - combined overall results do not matter.  I am not even talking about how the stage planning is affected, how your strategy on each type of a target changes, how to evaluate all of that based on the HHF of the stage...  most people dont even understand what all of this means.   I am just talking about the scoring of Major vs Minor.  

 

Let me try another question.  Why do you think Max Michel was ~30 seconds faster and 10% higher in the overall results that Jacob Hetherington? Is he really that much faster and that much better? Or maybe their game strategies were different and dictated how they shot?

 

But honestly... If it makes one feel better looking at the overall results, they find that useful and it drives them to work on their skills to improve - then who cares, it's a win win.

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by nasty618

[j1b]

3 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

If they are actually good AND understand the game (note that one can be a good shooter yet be very simple about their game knowledge and strategy), it is not and should not be important to them.  That's also not the take away that should have after a match you describe.  

 

Let me try a different way.  This will probably be a bad analogy, but... Imagine you're a hobbyist drag racer. You compete in Stock class.  You buddy is competing in the Funny Car class.  You both race in the quarter mile... you both get measured in time... it almost as if you're playing the same game and should compare yourself against his time, right?  But you're not.   

 

Look, I am not trying to red pill anyone who has been playing this game for a long time and still thinks that overall results matter. I find it difficult to convince people who are set in their ways.  And it really doesn't matter to me what folks think about overall results.  But that's just a simple fact - combined overall results do not matter.  I am not even talking about how the stage planning is affected, how your strategy on each type of a target changes, how to evaluate all of that based on the HHF of the stage...  most people dont even understand what all of this means.   I am just talking about the scoring of Major vs Minor.  

 

Let me try another question.  Why do you think Max Michel was ~30 seconds faster and 10% higher in the overall results that Jacob Hetherington? Is he really that much faster and that much better? Or maybe their game strategies were different and dictated how they shot?

 

So I don't want to get into an internet battle here. I have no qualms. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours. 

 

It isn't a fact that overall results don't matter though. It's an opinion. One held by many, which I respect. Facts are things like 2 times 2 equals 4. That's indisputable. Facts are that an A is worth 5 points. It isn't a fact if it's simply a different perspective. It's just that, a different perspective. 

 

I fully understand your concepts. I've been doing this a while. I get how in your view that comparing my production score against someone shooting carry optics could be considered a foolish comparison. Gun capacity is different, optics are different, stage planning is different, number of reloads is different etc. etc. etc. And to that end, rarely do I think too much if a PCC shooter is higher than me in the overall. It matters to me, but less so. 

 

As I mentioned, your comments are interesting to me. They are stated with such absolute solidity and with such indisputability. The insinuation... actually the statement... that people who look at the overall simply don't understand the game is a strong one. Very assumptive and stated with such infallibility

. 

Your comparison of Max to Jacob is a good one. Because I would say the caveat (that I never highlighted) is that at a nationals I do totally agree - the overall's don't matter. I mean certainly Max was pretty happy to win high overall at Area 5 this year (I think it was Area 5) but generally speaking at Area matches and National matches it certainly would matter less to me. But at club matches, for some (and to me), it absolutely matters. 

 

It's all opinion though and it's how we all want to gauge our own success. 

[nasty618]

8 hours ago, j1b said:

It isn't a fact that overall results don't matter though. It's an opinion. One held by many, which I respect. Facts are things like 2 times 2 equals 4. That's indisputable.

 

...

 

The insinuation... actually the statement... that people who look at the overall simply don't understand the game is a strong one. Very assumptive and stated with such infallibility

 

USPSA doesn't have combined results. All divisions are recognized separately, no combined scores are shown in the match uploads. It absolutely is a fact and not an opinion. 

 

...

 

It really isn't though.  It's based in personal observations and experience, supported by opinions of the highest level of competitors whose points of view I share.  

 

In any case, I appreciate your point of view and participation in this thread. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by nasty618

[nasty618]

7 hours ago, j1b said:

I've been doing this a while

 

7 hours ago, j1b said:

You won't change my mind

 

I mean... that's exactly what I said.  Once set, opinions are difficult to change. I'm always weary of the "I've been doing this a while" guys.  I don't even know what "I have been doing this a while" means in terms of knowledge and match results.  Are your consistently winning your local matches... today? Are you performing at a high level at major matches... today?  Or have you been doing this for 30 years and still sitting in M class?  Because, with respect, it matters.  Game has changed a lot in the last few years, as you know, and I am not sure if a GM classification from 20+ years ago has much meaning today. Not that one needs to be a high level competitor to understand the finer points of the scoring system and how it changes the game strategy, but...  it certainly doesn't inspire confidence when I hear "overall results matter" from someone who has been playing this game a while.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by nasty618

[j1b]

14 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

I mean... that's exactly what I said.  Once set, opinions are difficult to change. I'm always weary of the "I've been doing this a while" guys.  I don't even know what "I have been doing this a while" means in terms of knowledge and match results.  Are your consistently winning your local matches... today? Are you performing at a high level at major matches... today?  Or have you been doing this for 30 years and still sitting in M class?  Because, with respect, it matters.  Game has changed a lot in the last few years, as you know, and I am not sure if a GM classification from 20+ years ago has much meaning today. Not that one needs to be a high level competitor to understand the finer points of the scoring system and how it changes the game strategy, but...  it certainly doesn't inspire confidence when I hear "overall results matter" from someone who has been playing this game a while.

 

 

You are exactly the reason I don't come on the BE forums much any more. 

Thanks for reminding me why. 

[MemphisMechanic]

@j1b the majority of shooters are in your camp, in my opinion. Especally production shooters like myself, I’ve noticed. We tend to absolutely care about our placement at local matches relative to our buddy in CO or Limited who has a comparable skill level.

 

It comes down to your nature; if you’re a higjly competitive person you’re going to find places to exercise that, and yardsticks to measure yourself against.

 

Overall finish matters at my locals when I’m chatting with my buddies about it afterward.  
 

Edited January 1, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[SGT_Schultz]

15 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

I mean... that's exactly what I said.  Once set, opinions are difficult to change. I'm always weary of the "I've been doing this a while" guys.  I don't even know what "I have been doing this a while" means in terms of knowledge and match results.  Are your consistently winning your local matches... today? Are you performing at a high level at major matches... today?  Or have you been doing this for 30 years and still sitting in M class?  Because, with respect, it matters.  Game has changed a lot in the last few years, as you know, and I am not sure if a GM classification from 20+ years ago has much meaning today. Not that one needs to be a high level competitor to understand the finer points of the scoring system and how it changes the game strategy, but...  it certainly doesn't inspire confidence when I hear "overall results matter" from someone who has been playing this game a while.

 

 

 

You have done nothing but offer an unsubstantiated opinion as well.

 

I mean, if you offered up some support for your position other than "well the game has changed" I wouldn't say that.

 

But absent that, pot meet kettle.

Edited January 1, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[j1b]

32 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@j1b the majority of shooters are in your camp, in my opinion. Especally production shooters like myself, I’ve noticed. We tend to absolutely care about our placement at local matches relative to our buddy in CO or Limited who has a comparable skill level.

 

It comes down to your nature; if you’re a higjly competitive person you’re going to find places to exercise that, and yardsticks to measure yourself against.

 

Overall finish matters at my locals when I’m chatting with my buddies about it afterward.  
 

Yep, I tend to agree. 

 

[zzt]

I shoot Open major.  I always look at the Open Division standings, because I want to see how I fared against the rest.  However, I do pay attention to the overall standings, because I want to see how I did against my buddies shooting other Divisions.  They shoot Prod, Open and Open.  They are in their 30s and early 40s and can really scamper.  I'm 73 and can't scamper.  If I can stay close to the two Open shooters overall and beat the Production shooter, I'm happy.  To do that I have to shoot a lot more As than they do.

 

I'll also say it makes me happy to finish mid-20s overall out of 80 shooters.  An when I get in the teens I'm ecstatic.

[AngeloConde]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@j1b the majority of shooters are in your camp, in my opinion. Especally production shooters like myself, I’ve noticed. We tend to absolutely care about our placement at local matches relative to our buddy in CO or Limited who has a comparable skill level.

 

It comes down to your nature; if you’re a higjly competitive person you’re going to find places to exercise that, and yardsticks to measure yourself against.

 

Overall finish matters at my locals when I’m chatting with my buddies about it afterward.  
 

This is exactly how I feel. One reason I never ment to major matches. But I have a different mindset now :).

[nasty618]

6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

You have done nothing but offer an unsubstantiated opinion as well

The post you quoted is definitely nothing but a personal opinion.  The "overall results don't matter" or the "game is played differently depending on division" parts have been covered in the past and even a little earlier in this thread. 

[nasty618]

7 hours ago, j1b said:

You are exactly the reason I don't come on the BE forums much any more. 

Thanks for reminding me why. 

Hey man. I'm sorry if what I said got to you, but let me also remind you that you're the one who replied and quoted my post.  I am not attaching any kind of feelings to our exchange and definitely no ill intent, I'm just replying with my opinion to yours. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by nasty618

[j1b]

21 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Hey man. I'm sorry if what I said got to you, but let me also remind you that you're the one who replied and quoted my post.  I am not attaching any kind of feelings to our exchange and definitely no ill intent, I'm just replying with my opinion to yours. 

Good lord ... Go away. 

 

When I originally quoted you it was a conversation started. You've since demonstrated ... well... never mind. It's no longer a relevant conversation. 

 

Think what you want, I don't care. And I don't care to hear what you think about it. Your opinion holds no value to me.

 

Make BE great again

 

J

Edited January 2, 2021 by j1b

[nasty618]

2 minutes ago, j1b said:

Your opinion holds no value to me

Well, I'm relieved. Not that I thought it did. 

[SGT_Schultz]

56 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

The post you quoted is definitely nothing but a personal opinion.  The "overall results don't matter" or the "game is played differently depending on division" parts have been covered in the past and even a little earlier in this thread. 

 

Overall results matter to some and not to others.  It's a matter of opinion no matter how many times it's discussed.

 

As far as the game being played different depending on division, well, no s#!t.  It's also played differently within each division as everyone plays to their individual strengths.

[nasty618]

20 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

well, no s#!t.  It's also played differently within each division as everyone plays to their individual strengths.

That's not what I'm talking about. But, as you've said in the past - i don't have the time or inclination to try to educate you.

[Sarge]

[B_RAD]

Is this thread still going?  I can see it’s still on topic

[AngeloConde]

41 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Is this thread still going?  I can see it’s still on topic

I mean we can keep it going lol  I assume its dying because everyone is dabbling in limited,CO, and open?

[PatJones]

1 hour ago, AngeloConde said:

I mean we can keep it going lol  I assume its dying because everyone is dabbling in limited,CO, and open?

All the cool kids shoot revolver

[AngeloConde]

47 minutes ago, PatJones said:

All the cool kids shoot revolver

Hey I'm not gonna lie I envy people who do shoot revolvers takes alot of skill to reload that thing fast and efficiently.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:09 PM, AngeloConde said:

Hey I'm not gonna lie I envy people who do shoot revolvers takes alot of skill to reload that thing fast and efficiently.

 

Fast swingers is the really hard part to me. You could teach a monkey to reload and a dedicated monkey would practice it enough to become proficient. 

[Intheshaw1]

If things dont improve for components, I'll be running the new wrist rocket division in 2022....

 

But I think production is dying because it's not really production and it's really impossible to be. If you want it to be production you have to run bone stock guns but the playing field will never be level. They should just roll production into l10 at this point.

 

Ill likely be playing in CO this year provided by dot holds up all year. Otherwise I'll probably be running limited or limited minor. I play for fun and right now reloading isn't what I'm focusing on. I'll probably shoot production once this year for a change of pace but it's all with the same gun so for me it's all different types of training.

[waktasz]

Why would allowing more guns and more modifications in Production have limited participation?