USPSA Announces Rules Adjustment For Holster/Mag Pouch Positions

[Sestock]

6 hours ago, vluc said:

Just means we need to check if the flashlights are functional as opposed to filled with lead or tungsten.

How soon before someone points a mounted flashlight at an RO or their buddy to make sure it works?

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

I think the worst change is that you can place holster anywhere on the belt. 

 

"Wrists below belt" on top of this change will redefine what "draw" means. 

 

How is this an problem? You can already put a holster anywhere you want in lim/open/l10 with no issues

[Dazhi]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

How is this an problem? You can already put a holster anywhere you want in lim/open/l10 with no issues

 

I think it's a combination of "wrists below belt" + holster anywhere that makes things worse. 

It used to be "hands relaxed at sides", and that won't be an issue even if you can place your holster anywhere, but I guess it's too hard to enforce objectively.

 

[Sestock]

43 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I got two issues with the light. 
 

1.  What if it breaks?  Won’t turn on during equip check. Bump to open?

 

2.  High powered lights. Colored lens. Something to focus the light down to a small beam. Makeshift laser? Assuming this is possible. 

Bump to open if light doesn't work anytime during the match

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

I think it's a combination of "wrists below belt" + holster anywhere that makes things worse. 

It used to be "hands relaxed at sides", and that won't be an issue even if you can place your holster anywhere, but I guess it's too hard to enforce objectively.

 

 

But it is already wrist below belt and holster anywhere in 4 divisions and has been for a few years with no issues. I still don't see how making these 3 divisions mirror the others will be a problem

[HCH]

2 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

It'd be a little much to smash all the divisions in one shot. These definitely look like first steps towards a consolidation, though.

Not really.... 

 

Iron sights

8major/10 minor

Keep the SS/Production holster rules. 

Keep the SS/Production box. 

 

It's that simple. 

 

 

Make everyone's highest classification for any of the current 3 divisions their classification for LoCap. Run all the classifiers at NHQ with combined divisions to set HHF. 

[SGT_Schultz]

48 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

I think it's a combination of "wrists below belt" + holster anywhere that makes things worse. 

It used to be "hands relaxed at sides", and that won't be an issue even if you can place your holster anywhere, but I guess it's too hard to enforce objectively.

 

 

Good Lord almighty

 

Can we find more imaginary problems to obsess about?

[David.Hylton]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I am glad that I don't have to tackle the "Is this at or ahead/behind the hip bone???" gear location question for a 98783423487th time on match day. The same goes for using magnets to retain magazines.

 

Ditto. 

 

The updated rules are posted. 

 

2 hours ago, Dazhi said:

I think the worst change is that you can place holster anywhere on the belt. 

 

"Wrists below belt" on top of this change will redefine what "draw" means. 

 

I don't understand how this will cause an issue.  There's no difference from before. 

 

8 hours ago, OPENB said:

Are they approving AIWB?

 

It always has been for some divisions. 

https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/are-iwb-aiwb-holsters-legal/

Edited March 6, 2021 by David.Hylton
more info

[OPENB]

3 minutes ago, David.Hylton said:

 

Ditto. 

 

The updated rules are posted. 

 

 

I don't understand how this will cause an issue.  There's no difference from before. 

 

 

It always has been for some divisions.

Right, I realize that. Since all this started about CO and Production, do you think, maybe, that’s what I was referring too?

[PatJones]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

^^^  dude, did they ever catch the guys that vandalized your revolver?

Bwahahahahahaha...haha

[TrackCage]

5 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

*snip*

 

... flashlights...

I had not considered flashlights for the illumination advantage (versus just weight out front). This will be interesting... Worth buying a new holster, probably not.

 

I, for one, will likely put a mag pouch out front just to see if I like it. Maybe it sticks, maybe not. Aside from stand and shoot classifiers, I don’t think it matters.

 

In my area, mags on barrel stages are somewhat frequent, so the magnet is appealing, but not really a game changer.

 

Re-reading my post, I think the sentiment is clear. These rule changes are a distraction and are not going to change who does well at matches.

[Brooke]

15 hours ago, cheby said:

All these rule changes inevitably bring us to a question why there are different divisions?

 

I certainly agree with that and have no problem with it  However seems unnecessarily complex. Except for the exclusion of single action guns Production becomes Lim10 minor with restricted mag capacity.. Carry Optics becomes Limited Optics or Open with slide mounted optics(take your pick) and Single Stack becomes Limited minor/major with magazine restrictions based on caliber. 

 

To me this eliminates Production Div, combines CO with another Open Div subdivision, and either makes SS more appealing as a stand alone or less appealing as just another entry in Limited. Im guess you will soon see SS with 170mm magazines and just another alternative for Limited shooters.

 

Why not just go to Open (minor/major) with separate scoring for frame and slide mounted optics and Limited for anything with iron sights.

 

I certainly have been opposed to so many Divisions but this doesn't eliminate that it just eliminates the differences between them. I am 100% against allowing flashlights. That just begs let me see your light function. It won't last.

 

Overall my impression is what the hell were these people thinking?

 

[Brooke]

15 hours ago, cheby said:

I think we are going to the following direction:

1. Optic Open- major, compensator.

2. Optic regular - minor, no compensator 

3. Iron Major 

4. Iron minor 

That's all. Everything else does not matter 

I totally agree with that. The Production gun list should disappear soon. Not certain what manufacturers will think of that but Production was disappearing fast anyway. 

[gearguywb]

The flashlight thing is baffling.  The number of folks that were  impacted previously is minuscule.  Level 1 match, want to shoot your pistol with a light....sure thing!  Who cares?

 

Now what you will have is a light ran by a CR2032 battery with 2 lumens and a huge attachment.  

 

The only people happy about this are going to be the holster makers......:)

 

 

 

[Intheshaw1]

So what's the over/under on just 2 divisions, dot or no dot? 5 years? 10 years?

[CHA-LEE]

59 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

So what's the over/under on just 2 divisions, dot or no dot? 5 years? 10 years?

That will not happen because it would make it harder for competitors to get participation trophies. 

[B_RAD]

13 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

That will not happen because it would make it harder for competitors to get participation trophies. 

I agree with this but, it’s becoming hard not to think that most decisions are based on what makes things easier for staff/org. That or whatever will allow for any Joe off the street to show up and be in “competitive” division.......and to be easy for staff when it comes to any rule, decision or call. 
 

So,..... I can see how it might eventually be a dot or no dot only game. For pistols at least. PCC is probably here to stay and it seems there’s an Action .22 thing coming.  

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, Intheshaw1 said:

So what's the over/under on just 2 divisions, dot or no dot? 5 years? 10 years?

 

I think a more interesting O/U is on collapsing SS+Prod+L10 to a single Locap division, with 8 major/10 minor. The equipment rules for the locap semiauto divisions are now identical, minus the rules about the gun itself, and Production keeps on moving in a more-mods-allowed direction. I'm sure the single-stack guys wouldn't mind playing with a 60oz weight limit.

 

I'm almost expecting it in the next 3-5 years now, especially with Prod participation falling off a cliff. (It's barely more popular than Single Stack around me, and only a little more popular than Revolver. 4-5 years ago when I started USPSA, the locap divisions made up ~half the matches. Now we don't often break 10 shooters.)

 

As long as they leave wheelguns alone.

[Yeti]

New changes seem fine to me, but we'll see what gamer ridiculousness transpires.  Definite move away from IPSC.

Would enjoy an Action .22 option too, nice!  

[open17]

20 hours ago, NMBOpen said:

Rules have not yet been updated on USPSA website. BOD minutes said effective on release.

Just checked--the rulebook HAS been updated.   Says it was updated March 5, 2021.

Should be interesting.  I suspect that there will be some Production shooters, and maybe

some Single Stack that see "You can have a light"   that don't get to the "must fit the box"

part.    

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by open17

[Nathanb]

So now that I’ve had a chance to read the changes and digest the conversation. What problem did this solve? 

[B_RAD]

11 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

So now that I’ve had a chance to read the changes and digest the conversation. What problem did this solve? 

1. Less calls about rules need to made now that there are less rules. 
 

2. more non-competition shooters can show up and be placed in a division where they’ll be competitive. So they can compete. 
 

3. The org can brag that the non-profit org made more profit.  
 

4. this paves the way for action .22 which will have no rules so anyone can compete and the non-profit can make more profit. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by B_RAD

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

I agree with this but, it’s becoming hard not to think that most decisions are based on what makes things easier for staff/org. That or whatever will allow for any Joe off the street to show up and be in “competitive” division.......and to be easy for staff when it comes to any rule, decision or call. 
 

So,..... I can see how it might eventually be a dot or no dot only game. For pistols at least. PCC is probably here to stay and it seems there’s an Action .22 thing coming.  

 

I agree with what you are saying. In the long run I can see how competitors would migrate to specific divisions that have less limitations or more gun/gear features that make participating easier. That reality will always exist regardless of the current divisions or rules that govern them.

 

The more important thing to consider is this.....These division rule changes are biased towards promoting "inclusion for potential new shooters". Always keep in mind that a major priority for USPSA HQ is to increase membership. Increasing membership numbers has always been a primary measuring stick of "Successful Management" by USPSA HQ. Membership dues are the primary revenue stream for USPSA. Minimizing participation limitations and or boundaries = more $$$ for USPSA. I honestly can't fault USPSA HQ for deploying rule changes that increase the potential for increasing membership or their revenue. It takes money to run an organization properly. How effectively the organization utilizes that revenue will always be up for debate. But that isn't the primary discussion point of this thread.

[mjmagee67]

14 hours ago, tt350z said:

The light issue seems pretty simple to check.

 

If it doesnt turn on, have competitor open battery compartment to ensure there are only batteries in there and not lead or tungsten ballast.

Straight to open....

[cas]

So we're trying to bring in new shooters who own pistols with non removable flashlights. Got it.

 

I hope the matches don't get too crowded now. ;)