USPSA Announces Rules Adjustment For Holster/Mag Pouch Positions

[motosapiens]

Just now, DirkD said:

yeah but no 2011s or CZ SA Only, but they are allowed in IDPA.

 

but you can just buy more guns.... and that is really the point anyway, to buy lots of guns.

[motosapiens]

Just now, Lastcat said:

I sure hope we don't go down this road where, "Dude has 5 magnets and no pouches on his belt" Road. Please say it ain't gonna happen. 

 

I hope not, actually think it's faster to pull from a pouch then a magnet. 

I hope someone does that. I hope most people start messing with their equipment position tonight and show up for tomorrow's match with stuff they've never tested. I want to see all the stuff that can go wrong using magnets, lol. I suspect there's a reason most people only use a single magnet on open/limited rigs for those lame stages where all mags start on table. I've never wanted one other than for those lame stages, and I probably see 1 a year.

[BillChunn]

1 minute ago, Lastcat said:

I hope not, actually think it's faster to pull from a pouch then a magnet. 

 

Is it possible that you don't own any magnetic pouches? 

 

My reloads are a significant amount of time faster with the magnets.  It's all up to the individual and what they have practiced with.  Coming from Open and PCC to CO, for me it will be faster.

 

BC

[Lastcat]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

I hope someone does that. I hope most people start messing with their equipment position tonight and show up for tomorrow's match with stuff they've never tested. I want to see all the stuff that can go wrong using magnets, lol. I suspect there's a reason most people only use a single magnet on open/limited rigs for those lame stages where all mags start on table. I've never wanted one other than for those lame stages, and I probably see 1 a year.

 

That actually would be funny. See a belt with 5 magnets, see them fumble around trying to pull a mag. Or, too weak of magnets and drop their mags running the course...lol. Time will tell. 

[dafreshfish]

34 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

Where are you quoting that from? I only see that they removed the reference to E3.

 

"App. D4, D5, D7, Item 12 –Removed reference to App. E3"

 

And from the Downrange email:

 

"Please note that all other rules including the type of holster, height of the firearm, and distance from the belt have not changed." 

That was taken directly from the BOD meeting notes.  Based upon the press release, it says it is only reference to App. E3.

[Lastcat]

1 minute ago, BillChunn said:

 

Is it possible that you don't own any magnetic pouches? 

 

My reloads are a significant amount of time faster with the magnets.  It's all up to the individual and what they have practiced with.  Coming from Open and PCC to CO, for me it will be faster.

 

BC

 

Oh Ya, just one at the 12 O'clock for my Open Gun Rig. Usually if there are unloaded table starts, I grab 2 mags from the barrel, slap 1 on the mag the other in the gun. Sometimes I reload from the magnet. To each his own. 

[jar]

7 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

That actually would be funny. See a belt with 5 magnets, see them fumble around trying to pull a mag. Or, too weak of magnets and drop their mags running the course...lol. Time will tell. 

Or magnets that are way to strong and get stuck to a stage prop.

[Dazhi]

First reload will be ~30% faster.  Expect tons more 100% classifier runs after this change 

[louu]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

They failed

Explain please? 

[Lastcat]

2 minutes ago, jar said:

Or magnets that are way to strong and get stuck to a stage prop.

 

Bwhahahaha...that is a good one. Lots of metal poles, chairs, rods, doorways that can capture that "5 Magnet Guy"....LOL

Edited March 5, 2021 by Lastcat

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, BillChunn said:

 

Is it possible that you don't own any magnetic pouches? 

 

My reloads are a significant amount of time faster with the magnets.  It's all up to the individual and what they have practiced with.  Coming from Open and PCC to CO, for me it will be faster.

 

BC

 

How do you define significant amount of time? Ultimately your support hand must go to your belt grab the mag bring it to the gun and re-acquire your grip. Magnet or pouch that doesn't change. Where do you see your significant amount of time coming from? I'd guess the difference is almost immeasurable. 

 

 

[DirkD]

17 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

I sure hope we don't go down this road where, "Dude has 5 magnets and no pouches on his belt" Road. Please say it ain't gonna happen. 

 

I hope not, actually think it's faster to pull from a pouch then a magnet. 

why not?

Let the shooters decide what they want to use.

[BritinUSA]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I believe that people think that, but I never found it to be true. and while in CO you typically only do 1 reload, I found that having to change my arm movement for subsequent reloads in low-cap divisions was awkward..

I went to CO from Open, so I missed having that magazine near the front when I first started.
 

I agree that if shooting more than one division, then a consistent position would be more efficient.

[Dazhi]

It feels like USPSA is moving further away from IPSC. 

No 15 round Prod, and CO/Pord uses magnets, etc. 

It certainly adds more hurdles for people want to be good in both. 

[BillChunn]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How do you define significant amount of time? Ultimately your support hand must go to your belt grab the mag bring it to the gun and re-acquire your grip. Magnet or pouch that doesn't change. Where do you see your significant amount of time coming from? I'd guess the difference is almost immeasurable. 

 

 

 

Two places actually.  The magazine placement in the front of the belt versus  behind the hip and the time it takes to remove the mag from the holder. 

 

The immeasurable amount of time is present on the timer.  With the AMG Commander (and other timers) you can back up and see the amount of time it took to do the reload.  If you reloaded after 8 shots, the amount of time between shot 8 and 9 is your reload. 

 

Coming from behind the hip, the support hand must move much further than to the front of the belt.  Pulling a magazine upward and out of a DAA mag pouch is slower than simply pulling it off the magnetic holder at any angle.  Maybe it's just me but my PCC reloads were at least a second faster than my CO reloads with the "old" behind the hip rules. 

 

Tomorrow's range time will tell.

 

BC

[DirkD]

7 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

It feels like USPSA is moving further away from IPSC. 

No 15 round Prod, and CO/Pord uses magnets, etc. 

It certainly adds more hurdles for people want to be good in both. 

Not enough people in USPSA want 15 rounds in production, it doesn't make much sense to go to 15 rounds in Production anyway, it couldn't even get a second.

[MikeyScuba]

I’m one of those with 5 DAA magnetic mag pouches. It was pretty simple to turn it from a standard rig to open.  IPSC though.

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, BillChunn said:

Coming from behind the hip, the support hand must move much further than to the front of the belt. 

can you measure that difference for me? I'm unable to see any significant difference on myself until I get to the 3rd or 4th magazine. My good reloads are rarely faster than 1.2 seconds tho, so maybe it matters more for more skilled shooters.

 

Based on my own practice, and observations of others, the distance traveled is not particularly significant in how long a reload takes. That may be why tall people can still reload damn fast if they practice. I see people losing time in almost every other aspect of the reload *except* the distance traveled and how long the magazine takes to get out of a pouch.

[matteekay]

36 minutes ago, jar said:

Or magnets that are way to strong and get stuck to a stage prop.

 

That was my thought - starting seated and unloaded from a metal chair could get dicey.  

 

(I say that as someone who's hooked a folding chair on a moonclip post and shot the whole stage that way)

[MikeBurgess]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

can you measure that difference for me? I'm unable to see any significant difference on myself until I get to the 3rd or 4th magazine. My good reloads are rarely faster than 1.2 seconds tho, so maybe it matters more for more skilled shooters.

 

Based on my own practice, and observations of others, the distance traveled is not particularly significant in how long a reload takes. That may be why tall people can still reload damn fast if they practice. I see people losing time in almost every other aspect of the reload *except* the distance traveled and how long the magazine takes to get out of a pouch.

I remember shooting with a kid that had to wait for the mag to finish falling out of the gun, all his reloads looked like Burkett reload practice, but he was also done and shooting again in the .7s  

[BillChunn]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

can you measure that difference for me?

Am headed to the range tomorrow and will run some reload timings.

 

It may be that I'm coming from 20+ years of running an Open gun with mags in front followed by 3 years of PCC with the mags in the same place.

 

BC

[dafreshfish]

1 hour ago, Raztain said:

I'm confused by this. Rule changes say

o App. D4, D5, D7, Item 12 – Removed reference to App. E3

and

o App. E3 – Deleted bottom diagram showing equipment position in relation to hip bones

 

"Deleted bottom diagram" ... I assume that means the top diagram is still in place which says "foremost limit for gun... behind the hip bone"

Can someone explain? why leave the top diagram at all?

 

Feedback from USPSA on this placement rule change:  

 

We've actually effectively done both; the statement changed to the same one as Open division, which is "Yes, see 5.2.7.2", which is the height to belt language.  Distance to belt didn't change.  We simply removed the reference to E3 (the behind the hip bone requirement) from those 3 divisions.  I think the minutes were mis-worded a little bit. The intent was that there is no restriction on position on the belt, just height to belt and distance from the belt.   The bottom line is that there is no longer a "behind the hip" placement restriction for SS, Production, and Single Stack.

[BillChunn]

1 minute ago, dafreshfish said:

Feedback from USPSA on this placement rule change:  

 

We've actually effectively done both; the statement changed to the same one as Open division, which is "Yes, see 5.2.7.2", which is the height to belt language.  Distance to belt didn't change.  We simply removed the reference to E3 (the behind the hip bone requirement) from those 3 divisions.  I think the minutes were mis-worded a little bit. The intent was that there is no restriction on position on the belt, just height to belt and distance from the belt.   The bottom line is that there is no longer a "behind the hip" placement restriction for SS, Production, and Single Stack.

 

Thanks @dafreshfish for reaching out to HQ and clearing up the rule change.  Good to Go.

 

BC

[sc68cal]

The shooter at Area 8 who got bumped to Open last year for putting his magazine onto his magnet during unload and show clear should get his division set back to CO for that match and his classifier record

Edited March 5, 2021 by sc68cal

[Lastcat]

20 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

I’m one of those with 5 DAA magnetic mag pouches. It was pretty simple to turn it from a standard rig to open.  IPSC though.

 

Awesome, hope it works out for ya. In all seriousness, I was merely kidding around. Some uses 5 magnets, its all good.