motosapiens Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 25 minutes ago, BillChunn said: It may be that I'm coming from 20+ years of running an Open gun with mags in front followed by 3 years of PCC with the mags in the same place. That makes alot of sense. I'm coming from the opposite direction, with 6-8 years of prod and ss experience before I ever shot a division where I *could* put my mags further forward. Hopefully this rule change will be helpful to you and other folks who are used to Lim/Open positioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyScuba Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, Lastcat said: Awesome, hope it works out for ya. In all seriousness, I was merely kidding around. Some uses 5 magnets, its all good. No worries. Guess who’s belt gets dragged around on the grass hoping to pick up a lost spring ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 58 minutes ago, Dazhi said: It feels like USPSA is moving further away from IPSC. No 15 round Prod, and CO/Pord uses magnets, etc. It certainly adds more hurdles for people want to be good in both. Have you seen the holsters that IPSC allows in Production and Production Optics? How many people in the US seriously want to be good at both? 20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, louu said: Explain please? They left Production at 10 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 2 hours ago, cheby said: There have been several changes in the last few years that essentially eliminated the difference between different divisions. Different guns?? Please tell me how Shadow 2 is different from a limited gun?? The DA is the only and a very minor difference these days. This is why for example, I switched to limited after many years shooting Production with various CZs. The recent rules go further in that direction. At this point, the only difference should be minor vs major and iron vs optic. The divisions as they stand don't suit you it seems. But they suit me just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 All of these changes, and yet Production, SS, and L10 are all different divisions..... for reasons we proles will never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, BillChunn said: .Maybe it's just me but my PCC reloads were at least a second faster than my CO reloads Are your PCC reloads insanely fast or your CO reloads really slow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lastcat Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 22 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said: No worries. Guess who’s belt gets dragged around on the grass hoping to pick up a lost spring ? That's a good tip, if I ever lose a part on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, HCH said: Are your PCC reloads insanely fast or your CO reloads really slow? Both..... lol. BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 28 minutes ago, HCH said: All of these changes, and yet Production, SS, and L10 are all different divisions..... for reasons we proles will never know. It'd be a little much to smash all the divisions in one shot. These definitely look like first steps towards a consolidation, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Well... dammit. On the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 ^^^ dude, did they ever catch the guys that vandalized your revolver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 46 minutes ago, motosapiens said: ^^^ dude, did they ever catch the guys that vandalized your revolver? Looks like something Rick Deckard would use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 There are positives and negatives associated with any rule change. I think that the positives of these changes out weigh the negatives. I like to look at rule changes from two different perspectives and its always interesting to see how each perspective has a different priority. I have listed my two perspectives below.... Match Director Perspective - Doing away with the magazine pouch and holster position restrictions promotes a more "inclusive" culture when bringing newer shooters into the game. This helps them use the equipment they currently have without needing to invest in more stuff just to try out the sport. From an officiating perspective these changes make assessing legal setups much easier. I don't know about you guys but I am glad that I don't have to tackle the "Is this at or ahead/behind the hip bone???" gear location question for a 98783423487th time on match day. The same goes for using magnets to retain magazines. Competitor Perspective - I don't know why NROI or USPSA decided to deploy these significant gun and gear rule changes with the Low Cap Nationals being not far away. This will lead to a Chinese fire drill scenario where competitors feel like they need to change their equipment and figure it all out before the Nationals. "Needing" to change your equipment due to the rule change will always be subjective as everyone has a different motivation or feeling about what is better or not. The smart competitors will leave their stuff alone until after the Nationals and keep hammering on their existing setups during their training. I like having the opportunity to keep the holster and mag pouches in the same locations when switching divisions. This would make trying different divisions from one match/practice to the next much easier. It would also give you the opportunity to reuse the exact same basic belt setup for multiple divisions with minor changes needed. Maybe we will see more people trying different divisions due to this situation alone? The thing I am wondering about is how the gear location change will impact the current 100% hit factors on Classifiers. Having the gun and gear at or behind your hip bone does make the physical arm & body mechanics of drawing and reloading more complex. Being able to position the gun and mags in more optimal locations which minimize wasted movement will translate to "Faster" draws and reloads. I am not saying that people can't currently draw or reload at a very high performance level when the gun/mags are at or behind the hip bones. That absolutely can be done when you put in enough gun handling training. For the average competitor, having the gun and mags in a more optimal position will allow them to execute gun handling more effectively with less training required. I think the time of peoples reloads will get better and this will cause an average performance change for the better which is currently not reflected in the Classification system. Any classifiers with reloads will be impacted by this rule change. How much? Who knows. Maybe it will not be enough to need for adjustment of the 100% hit factors. General Perspective of the Flashlight Addition - The Flashlight addition will be interesting to see if that turns into a requirement based on stage design or lighting conditions. During a normal outdoor local club match that happens between 10AM and 2PM I doubt that having additional illumination will make much of any difference. Major matches which have shooting schedules that start early in the morning or finish late in the evening could be a totally different story. I have attended plenty of major matches where I wish I had additional illumination when the lighting conditions were crappy due to the shooting schedule. The more common scenario will be indoor matches where the lighting is always poor. I would hate for the flashlight addition to the rules lead to a mandatory requirement for attendees to be competitive due to the lighting conditions that are outside of the match directors control. This could easily be solved by stipulating that the additional flashlight on the gun be functional (Keeps people from gutting them and filling them with lead), but also switched off during the stage run (eliminating the potential for illumination advantage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 3 hours ago, BritinUSA said: Back when I was shooting I did a lot of testing to find my best holster position/angle. I found that putting the holster on the seam of my pants with the gun pointed straight down was the best position for me. This put the holster well within the limit. For the mag holders I can see the angled ones becoming popular as its far easier/faster to reload from the front than from the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwx40x40 Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 I agree, moving the holster forward is not of interest to me. But, not having to reach half way around my back for a mag in SS or Production will be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said: The divisions as they stand don't suit you it seems. But they suit me just fine. I guess that is an argument too... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 I am going to say, I like all these changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 Just now, cheby said: I guess that is an argument too... lol I have no desire or need to argue. I have no issue with the changes and even if I disagreed I still wouldn't argue them. It's done and over with and I have better things to do with my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matteekay Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 A few snips... 22 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: I don't know about you guys but I am glad that I don't have to tackle the "Is this at or ahead/behind the hip bone???" gear location question for a 98783423487th time on match day. The same goes for using magnets to retain magazines. I had to deal with than one last night, and it wasn't even a new shooter. I'm all for the change, but also curious what happens with HHF. 22 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: General Perspective of the Flashlight Addition - The Flashlight addition will be interesting to see if that turns into a requirement based on stage design or lighting conditions. During a normal outdoor local club match that happens between 10AM and 2PM I doubt that having additional illumination will make much of any difference. Major matches which have shooting schedules that start early in the morning or finish late in the evening could be a totally different story. I have attended plenty of major matches where I wish I had additional illumination when the lighting conditions were crappy due to the shooting schedule. The more common scenario will be indoor matches where the lighting is always poor. I would hate for the flashlight addition to the rules lead to a mandatory requirement for attendees to be competitive due to the lighting conditions that are outside of the match directors control. This could easily be solved by stipulating that the additional flashlight on the gun be functional (Keeps people from gutting them and filling them with lead), but also switched off during the stage run (eliminating the potential for illumination advantage). I'm really curious if they will address the on/off state of the light in the revised rules. I completely get your concern (hell, if I could have, I would have duct-taped a light to my N-Frame by the end of Friday during the 2020 MHS), but I would prefer the option to use the light and risk it becoming a must-have if it's going to be an either/or judgement. That might stem from shooting too many indoor matches with less-than-stellar lighting... including my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 (edited) I got two issues with the light. 1. What if it breaks? Won’t turn on during equip check. Bump to open? 2. High powered lights. Colored lens. Something to focus the light down to a small beam. Makeshift laser? Assuming this is possible. Edited March 6, 2021 by B_RAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 31 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said: Competitor Perspective - I don't know why NROI or USPSA decided to deploy these significant gun and gear rule changes with the Low Cap Nationals being not far away. This will lead to a Chinese fire drill scenario where competitors feel like they need to change their equipment and figure it all out before the Nationals. "Needing" to change your equipment due to the rule change will always be subjective as everyone has a different motivation or feeling about what is better or not. The smart competitors will leave their stuff alone until after the Nationals and keep hammering on their existing setups during their training. I'm hoping every other SS shooter moves their gear around, then finds out it actually offers no advantage (and some disadvantages), and moves it back the morning lo-cap nats starts. :d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 1 minute ago, B_RAD said: I got two issues with the light. 1. What if it breaks? Won’t turn on during equip check. Bump to open? 2. High powered lights. Colored lens. Something to focus the light down to a small beam. Makeshift laser? i am all for allowing frickin' lasers. In fact, I would encourage it for all my competitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tt350z Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 The light issue seems pretty simple to check. If it doesnt turn on, have competitor open battery compartment to ensure there are only batteries in there and not lead or tungsten ballast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazhi Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 I think the worst change is that you can place holster anywhere on the belt. "Wrists below belt" on top of this change will redefine what "draw" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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