Why not more SBR in PCC?

[hlpressley]

Why not? Seeems like it would be a pretty significant advantage over a longer barrel with ports, walls, etc.

 

People don’t want to deal with the hassle of a Form 4 perhaps? 

[andrewt556]

USPSA should allow pistol braces. I do not see a reason why not.

 

Also paying 200 bucks to the government sucks. 

[KyleJ]

45 minutes ago, hlpressley said:

Why not? Seeems like it would be a pretty significant advantage over a longer barrel with ports, walls, etc.

 

People don’t want to deal with the hassle of a Form 4 perhaps? 

The hassle, cost and the time invested. For your average guy it's a lot easier to throw on an SBA3 and obtain the same look/feel. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by KyleJ
Spelling

[Silverscooby27]

7 hours ago, andrewt556 said:

USPSA should allow pistol braces. I do not see a reason why not.

 

Also paying 200 bucks to the government sucks. 

Because shooting off your shoulder like a stock with a brace is technically illegal. That’s probably the reason.

[Silverscooby27]

I can tell you I personally don’t use one because I don’t want to deal with the BS of paperwork and forms and also difficulty of travel. We spend so much money in this sport that I don’t give a rats about $200. I also think that if the top guys were using them, the popularity would increase. But they don’t. I’m talking about USPSA, I don’t know anything about 3 gun.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Silverscooby27

[tha1000]

Just got my lower engraved.  There seems to be a lack of off the shelf upper options that have the barrel threads extend beyond the end of the hand guard. 

 

Love the JP 10.5” upper. Do not love the $1000+ price. 

[DavidSeavey]

i run an 8" mpx pistol with taccom barrel extension.  it'd be real easy to cut it down after paperwork but it's the govt bs and complications in legal travel that prevent me from doing it yet. 

[TRUBL]

Locally, we've seen them......the traveling form one state to another, while not a huge PIA, it is a PIA to plan......no spur of the moment thing at all.

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, DavidSeavey said:

i run an 8" mpx pistol with taccom barrel extension.  it'd be real easy to cut it down after paperwork but it's the govt bs and complications in legal travel that prevent me from doing it yet. 

In USPSA?

[PocketPistol]

1 hour ago, Silverscooby27 said:

Because shooting off your shoulder like a stock with a brace is technically illegal. That’s probably the reason.

 

ATF said in 2017 that it isn't illegal to shoulder lacking other intent e.g. permanent attachment, removing strap, etc. Of course they can reverse this whenever they want as they are doing with bumpstocks.

 

 “With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not ‘make’ a short-barreled firearm because … it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder.” The letter continues: “Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock — even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder.”

 

I agree that uspsa should make it legal to use a brace, it simplifies carrying across state lines. It doesn't give the competitor any advantage vs. a stock.

 

I have an MPX SBR I used in competition, but bought a JP with pinned and welded comp to avoid having to file paperwork when I leave my state.

[Nathanb]

File the 5320 once at the beginning of the year for any state you think you may travel to.  It’s really not that hard. 

 

Payjng for a stamp does suck. Seeing all the reactions to them makes it worth it. 

 

 

And no uspsa shouldnt allow pistol

braces. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Nathanb

[George16]

I shoot an 8” MPX in PCC that I sbr’ed last November. It took 17 days after E-filing my form 1 to get the stamp approved. I like it since it’s a lot lighter an more maneuverable for me especially after installing a carbon fiber handguard.

[bwikel]

41 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

File the 5320 once at the beginning of the year for any state you think you may travel to.  It’s really not that hard. 

 

Payjng for a stamp does suck. Seeing all the reactions to them makes it worth it. 

 

 

And no uspsa shouldnt allow pistol

braces. 

Completing a 5320.20 is a little more detailed than just listing a state you are traveling to, the address of a location must be entered. I always use the range address and use 1 year for the time frame. Like you said complete it at the beginning of the year and you are done. They now also accept fax and email 5320 applications. My experience on turnaround is less than 2 weeks so it does take a little planning to accomplish if you are adding a new location you haven't traveled to before. 

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, PocketPistol said:

 

ATF said in 2017 that it isn't illegal to shoulder lacking other intent e.g. permanent attachment, removing strap, etc. Of course they can reverse this whenever they want as they are doing with bumpstocks.

 

Read their language. The reaction in the gun community was “yay free SBRs! Just put a brace on it and go!”

 

Most didn’t stop to read their wording carefully. The ATFs phrasing pretty clearly says it’s no longer a Felony to fire a round with the brace in contact with your shoulder... but intentionally building a gun to fire from the shoulder isn’t what they’re green-lighting.

 

USPSA is wise not to permit pistols, and wind up with a hundred competitors on video firing shouldered pistols on Shooting USA and instagram and YouTube. In my opinion.

[MemphisMechanic]

10 hours ago, hlpressley said:

Why not? Seeems like it would be a pretty significant advantage over a longer barrel with ports, walls, etc.

 

People don’t want to deal with the hassle of a Form 4 perhaps? 

 

The ability to drive the gun agressively with your offhand well out on the hanguard is an advantage in recoil control and transitions.

 

In both PCC and in 3-Gun you never see an SBR finishing in the top 10 at a high level match.

 

The reason isn’t because no one wants to spend $200. We love spending $200-500 on parts to gain a percieved advantage. We do it all the time.

 

[Acer2428]

I SBR'd one of my MPX's. The 8" barrel/HG combo was too short for me and found while my maneuverability was quick, my stability suffered. Went to a 10" HG and a flash can and it's a happy medium for me. To save the 2-3" over a Gen 2 carbine barrel or a P&W 14.5 AR barrel.... eh.

 

I have another with an 8" bbl + taccom extension w/ a port. In drills it's just as fast, if not mildly faster because I have less of a tendency to over-swing with it, and thus can be more aggressive in transitions. The more movement/walls/ports a stage has, the better off the SBR is. Open COF/tight partials, etc. the 16" jobber has a mild advantage (for me).

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Acer2428

[bwikel]

9 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

The ability to drive the gun agressively with your offhand well out on the hanguard is an advantage in recoil control and transitions.

 

In both PCC and in 3-Gun you never see an SBR finishing in the top 10 at a high level match.

 

The reason isn’t because no one wants to spend $200. We love spending $200-500 on parts to gain a percieved advantage. We do it all the time.

 

It doesn't matter what barrel length a top shooter is running he will almost always be at the top of the pack. I do agree that a really short barrel can be as much of a disadvantage as an advantage if you cannot get your support hand out enough to be effective with transitions, but you don't need a 14.5 or 16 in barrel to accomplish that. 10-12 in of handguard is enough real estate to accomplish that with most people. Stretching your support arm out fully and locking your elbow isn't the most effective way for me to swing the gun either. 

 

As for no shooters in 3 Gun or USPSA that run SBR's placing well in major matches. Derek Giddings says hello. 

[hlpressley]

Interesting takes from various perspectives. 

[caspian guy]

Being 6'4" with long arms an 11.5" or so gun is about as short as I can drive aggressively.

[Tampa-XD45]

Like bwikel mentions above, email or fax your form 5320 to NFAFax@atf.gov.  The last 3 that emailed to the ATF for out of state matches all took one week for the email response. 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Tampa-XD45

[hlpressley]

Same here. Although I’m not serious enough about PCC to travel to shoot it, I live so close to the border of my state that traveling across state lines to a local is very common. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by hlpressley

[427Cobra]

5 hours ago, Silverscooby27 said:

Because shooting off your shoulder like a stock with a brace is technically illegal. That’s probably the reason.

No it’s not

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/atf-clarifies-ruling-pistol-stabilizing-braces/

[NervousEnergy]

1 hour ago, Acer2428 said:

I SBR'd one of my MPX's. The 8" barrel/HG combo was too short for me and found while my maneuverability was quick, my stability suffered. Went to a 10" HG and a flash can and it's a happy medium for me. To save the 2-3" over a Gen 2 carbine barrel or a P&W 14.5 AR barrel.... eh.

 

I have another with an 8" bbl + taccom extension w/ a port. In drills it's just as fast, if not mildly faster because I have less of a tendency to over-swing with it, and thus can be more aggressive in transitions. The more movement/walls/ports a stage has, the better off the SBR is. Open COF/tight partials, etc. the 16" jobber has a mild advantage (for me).

 

Stability suffering was the big issue for me, and it was entirely due to weight.  I ran the Taccom ULW barrel on my MPX for most of 2018, and while pointing it felt like pointing a stick (and a small stick at that), follow-up shots were a lot more variable.  For single-shot steel challenge it would probably be perfect, but I went back to a 14.5' ILWT barrel with an MBX comp welded on, and the barrel stays right were I want it now for multiple shots.  Transitions might be a tiny bit slower, but it's nearly imperceptible.  

 

I ran a Tavor all 2017 thinking the bullpup design would have all the benefits of an SBR without it being an SBR.  I would up transitioning more with torso twist rather than pointing due to the short form, and it was a lot slower.  Fun gun, but not competitive.

[RAINY0DAYS]

Not legal in my state, and I don't really see an advantage either way. I just went from a Taccom ULW to a 14.5 just to add more weight and run softer loads. ULW was super fast to point, but it was more difficult to get tight second shots. I imagine an actual SBR would be similar once you chop off enough barrel.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[OPENB]

I started PCC with my SBR, and thought I had a cheater gun, until I tried it, for all the reasons mentioned above. Moving through the stage is definitely faster, but that isn't where most of the time is saved, its the splits and transitions. A blow back gun is just so different from what we usually compete with. Weight is our friend. I tried the ULW too, and it behaved very much like my SBR. Easy to point and carry, jumpy in the hand to shoot. Ironically, I found the same to be true for my 3gun rifle when I tried to build a 5 lb. .223. Just didn't settle down, and hard to keep from overdriving targets. My recent build is a 16" Foxtrot Mike barrel, Colt-style. Gonna add the Taccom 3 stage buffer, and work up the right load with fastish powder. I think that is the best we can hope for in a blowback. My MPX like it hot with slow powder, but its a gas gun.

 

Probably a 13"-14.5" with a permanent muzzle device would be perfect.