Why not more SBR in PCC?

[hlpressley]

Good thing I’m not too serious about PCC, mine is a 10.5” SBR!

[DavidSeavey]

13 hours ago, Sarge said:

In USPSA?

sorry, meant to say i purchased it as an 8" pistol, permanently affixed the extension and then put a proper stock on.  so it's a rifle now, but with no buffer or long  heavy barrel it handles like an sbr but can be manipulated like a full size.

[chevrofreak]

11 hours ago, 427Cobra said:

No it’s not

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/atf-clarifies-ruling-pistol-stabilizing-braces/

If we see it legalized for USPSA in PCC or its own division, the ATF will take note of all of the braces being shouldered and likely take action. 

[andrewt556]

18 hours ago, Silverscooby27 said:

Because shooting off your shoulder like a stock with a brace is technically illegal. That’s probably the reason.

technically you should be up to date on the ATF's "rulings". Don't spread misinformation. Be informed. 

[PigSnowball]

3 hours ago, chevrofreak said:

If we see it legalized for USPSA in PCC or its own division, the ATF will take note of all of the braces being shouldered and likely take action. 

Their ruling is very clear, in fact, could not be MORE clear, the act of firing rounds (even lots of them and often) with the brace shouldered has no bearing on whether it is a pistol or SBR.

USPSA needs to update the rule, it's unnecessary. Many recreational shooters buy pistol brace pistol calibre pistols PCC could be a very welcome intro division for many people out there to the sport if they had a division to use that firearm.

I dare say that braced pistols are probably more popular than pistol calibre rifles. I only see rifle lengths used in competition.

I do see a need for WSBs to be updated to include "stock or brace" or some other word to allow for either and perhaps even bare buffer tubes eg. cheek touching gun or belt touching gun.
 

Edited March 7, 2019 by PigSnowball

[Startingover]

9 hours ago, chevrofreak said:

If we see it legalized for USPSA in PCC or its own division, the ATF will take note of all of the braces being shouldered and likely take action. 

I agree with this!

I dont need the extra attention, from anyone, especially those boys.

[Acer2428]

I feel like this has been hashed and re-hashed 1,000 times now by people who want to find a use for/justify their range toy.

 

Braced Pistol = Pistol

PCC =/= Pistol

 

It's the same as asking why they don't allow shotguns in production... They're not the same thing. If you allowed braced pistols you may as well just call it 'SUPER ULTRA MEGA OPEN' I understand the motive. When I started I had a 9mm braced AR pistol as well. I also didn't like/understand the ruling... So I went out and bought a $65 AR Stoner 16" 9mm barrel and once installed, slapped a stock on it to try out the sport. 

 

The long and short of it is that the argument of "This is what I have/like, so there should be a division for it" is not new... and still not a good policy. I still have my pistol-turned-PCC that I use as a loaner for anyone who wants to try it out. 

[Neomet]

Rounding back to the OP's question I think the answer is that there is no discernable evidence that a SBR is better overall at our game than a non-sbr carbine.  Personally, I only see very, very few times where a SBR has an advantage.  Almost always our stages are open enough to easily allow movement with a full-length carbine.  I'm not third man in a stack clearing a room.  Out in the open I shoot a full length better/faster/more accurately than I do a SBR.  Others here have said much the same thing.  I'm not saying someone can't do really well with a SBR or that if you like SBRs for whatever reason you shouldn't use them.  That is part of the fun of this division.  I just don't see a compelling reason to compete with one.  I am sure the top dogs who need every slight advantage to beat other top dogs would be using SBRs if they were the better tools.  They wouldn't care less about the aggravations of SBR ownership.     

[Silverscooby27]

15 hours ago, andrewt556 said:

technically you should be up to date on the ATF's "rulings". Don't spread misinformation. Be informed. 

You really don’t have to be a dick about it. I doubt I’m the only person in this country who was under this impression. K? Thanks.

[bwikel]

IMO shooting a braced pistol in matches demonstrates intent to shoulder it, which goes beyond the design. As the limits of this design continues to gets pushed to the edge I think ATF will likely reverse their previous decision......again.

[StealthyBlagga]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:17 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

 

The ability to drive the gun agressively with your offhand well out on the hanguard is an advantage in recoil control and transitions.

 

In both PCC and in 3-Gun you never see an SBR finishing in the top 10 at a high level match.

 

The reason isn’t because no one wants to spend $200. We love spending $200-500 on parts to gain a percieved advantage. We do it all the time.

 

 

THIS

 

I started with an SBR, but switched pretty quickly to a 16" gun for the recoil management and transitions. Even with ports, the extra length doesn't bother me... maybe it's because I am a 3-Gun God 

[Acer2428]

Any barrel length past the HG (maybe give it an inch or two for a margin of safety) is wasted space though. Most people aren't gripping the very end of a 15" HG. I found an 8" HG on the MPX to be too short, but a 14" HG was much longer than I needed. An isler 10.25" was perfect, but required me to run a flash can to get out past it w/ an 8" bbl. 

 

So far in dry fire it seems about perfect. So now I have an effectively 12" long barrel. Is it really worth the paperwork/expense, etc. vs. a 16" barrel? Eh. 

 

Does it look cool? YEP!

 

And as we know, that's 1/2 of the battle

[George16]

56 minutes ago, Acer2428 said:

Any barrel length past the HG (maybe give it an inch or two for a margin of safety) is wasted space though. Most people aren't gripping the very end of a 15" HG. I found an 8" HG on the MPX to be too short, but a 14" HG was much longer than I needed. An isler 10.25" was perfect, but required me to run a flash can to get out past it w/ an 8" bbl. 

 

So far in dry fire it seems about perfect. So now I have an effectively 12" long barrel. Is it really worth the paperwork/expense, etc. vs. a 16" barrel? Eh. 

 

Does it look cool? YEP!

 

And as we know, that's 1/2 of the battle

Hey, as long as you’re satisfied and happy with what you’ve got. Who cares what other people say .

 

I pretty much got the same set up minus the flash can and 10.25 HG. I’m thinking about getting an ILWT 10 or 12” barrel and Smoke composites handguard. Still waiting for Smoke Composite to call me back again to find out if he can make one for my MPX. He’s a great guy to deal with even though he’s a one-man operation.

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, Acer2428 said:

Any barrel length past the HG (maybe give it an inch or two for a margin of safety) is wasted space though. Most people aren't gripping the very end of a 15" HG. 

 

I agree. I run a 12” CODA handguard on a barrel cut down to 14” and pinned / welded to 16.1” for this very reason.

 

The first port on the comp is just past the location I grip the handguard at. 

[Neomet]

6 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

THIS

 

I started with an SBR, but switched pretty quickly to a 16" gun for the recoil management and transitions. Even with ports, the extra length doesn't bother me... maybe it's because I am a 3-Gun God 

 

But at least a kind and benevolent one.  

 

Also to your point I run an 18" with a comp in 3gun and haven't once felt slowed down by the barrel length on the tight COFs in the pistol bays.  

[HoseKing]

I see almost half SBRs at local matches but those shooters dont attend many if any sectionals or larger matches. Probably a cool toy > pure competition thing which I understand.

[p7fl]

I am about to Efile a 16 down to a 10 1/2. All my ARs are 10 1/2 to 11 1/2. The 9 is the only 16 and it is heavy compared to my others.

So far the only negative I've read is stability. Heavier gun=easier fup shots.

Any other negatives I should reflect on before the papers go in ?

DVC

jon

[Rolex]

1 hour ago, p7fl said:

I am about to Efile a 16 down to a 10 1/2. All my ARs are 10 1/2 to 11 1/2. The 9 is the only 16 and it is heavy compared to my others.

So far the only negative I've read is stability. Heavier gun=easier fup shots.

Any other negatives I should reflect on before the papers go in ?

DVC

jon

I did the efile form 1- exactly 14 days and it was emailed to me- 

[Neomet]

4 hours ago, p7fl said:

I am about to Efile a 16 down to a 10 1/2. All my ARs are 10 1/2 to 11 1/2. The 9 is the only 16 and it is heavy compared to my others.

So far the only negative I've read is stability. Heavier gun=easier fup shots.

Any other negatives I should reflect on before the papers go in ?

DVC

jon

 

Mainly what Richard said above.  A significant number of PCC competitors, particularly in the upper ranks run their support hand out at or very near the end of the handguard to help drive the gun to the next target for faster transitions.  Look at photos/vids of the top shooters in this division and you will see what I mean.  Doesn't mean you can't rock a 10" particularly since you are so familiar with shooting that length.  

[Nathanb]

I’m sure it was mentioned but I do find my sbr to be a bit bouncy unless I’ve got the suppressor on it. Of course a suppressor does no good in this game so I wouldn’t see it as an advantage. 

[Bwillis]

33 minutes ago, Neomet said:

 

Mainly what Richard said above.  A significant number of PCC competitors, particularly in the upper ranks run their support hand out at or very near the end of the handguard to help drive the gun to the next target for faster transitions.  Look at photos/vids of the top shooters in this division and you will see what I mean.  Doesn't mean you can't rock a 10" particularly since you are so familiar with shooting that length.  

Max leograndis running with his hand almost on the lower. Imo it has to do with lop short stock/further down the hg, longer stock/not so far down the hg. It has to do with what the shooter is comfortable with. Find what works for you. I talked with a gm shooting with max today that told me he brought his hand back and gained more control, with the blowback pcc it creates more bounce the further he ran his hand out. 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Bwillis

[Neomet]

Interesting!  Max is always playing with variables.  A bright and talented young man.  I think we agree that in the end it is whatever works for you.  

[Bwillis]

5 hours ago, Neomet said:

Interesting!  Max is always playing with variables.  A bright and talented young man.  I think we agree that in the end it is whatever works for you.  

 

I agree 100% with everything you said here. 

[jlo86cj]

I have tried different support hand positions and the outstretched arm was always uncomfortable to me. There is a lot more tension in my arm than I like. I have tried from 16” to 8” MPX setups and finally settled on 10.5”. The balance is perfect for me. This is a 10.5” ILWT barrel, Tooth & Nail comp and custom length Isler handguard at 11”.

[Rolex]

And Jimmy O can shoot-