Limited Optics

[ltdmstr]

13 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Optics major, optics minor.

Irons major, irons minor. 

 

4 divisions and easy to sort them and super inclusive. That's how I'd do it.

Pretty simple flow chart to get you into a division. 

Do you have optic or iron sights? Next, is your ammo major or minor? Ok then, no more questions to ask.

 

Best idea I've heard so far.

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, cheers623 said:

That is literally one of the funniest/wittiest things I’ve seen on this forum in years!!!! @GrumpyOne…genius!!!!

You never know...it might be COOL...

[Southpaw]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I'm game,

 

But I wonder if Limited_Minor kills regular limited after a few years or not. I'm to the point I don't really care, I just think it might happen. Limited is suffering already, and isn't like half the participation minor already? I could also see some CO shooters dump the optic to go to L-minor. Also not really a bad thing. 

 

I think it would too.  And also don't think that's a bad thing, and I shoot Limited and bought .40 guns just for it.  Let the consumers decide.  If everyone moves to Limited  Minor then eventually get rid of Limited when participation drops too low, or if Limited stays popular then keep it.

[Dazhi]

Nothing is wrong with CO at this moment of time, though IMO it was wrong to allow 140mm in CO back then. 

The right thing to do is to leave CO alone no matter what happens to LO today or in 5 years. 

[TaterHead]

How about a division called “Everything Else” so we don’t go thru this stuff about new guns every year or so.

[BadShot]

3 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

Now, that's funny...

[outerlimits]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Best idea I've heard so far.

agreed-plus dump PCC

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Dazhi said:

Nothing is wrong with CO at this moment of time, though IMO it was wrong to allow 140mm in CO back then. 

The right thing to do is to leave CO alone no matter what happens to LO today or in 5 years. 

 

This 100%

 

Everyone wants a piece of the CO action but they all want the rules bent their particular way

 

F that

[echotango]

32 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

This 100%

 

Everyone wants a piece of the CO action but they all want the rules bent their particular way

 

F that

 Spot on. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by echotango

[GJM]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i wonder if it would be feasible to word the rules to allow combining similar divisions at smaller matches, so as to get enough participants to be recognized. i don’t see any reason to combine ss and prod at nationals, but it might make more sense at a local or even a section match where there might only be a handful in each division.  maybe if there are fewer than 10 shooters (or 5, or 7, or wutever), allow the md to combine with a reasonably similar division.

Here are some 2022 stats from area matches 1,2,3. 
 

area 1 -- 388 shooters

CO 143

open 103

limited 52

PCC 48

SS 16

Prod 22

L10  4

Revo  0

 

area 2 -- 480 shooters

CO 147

open 138

limited 65

PCC 72

SS 31

Prod 21

L10 0

Revo 6

 

area 3 -- 352 shooters

CO 117

open 84

limited 71

PCC 36

SS 3

Prod 39

L10 0

Revo 2

 

[scroadkill]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Optics major, optics minor.

Irons major, irons minor. 

 

4 divisions and easy to sort them and super inclusive. That's how I'd do it.

Pretty simple flow chart to get you into a division. 

Do you have optic or iron sights? Next, is your ammo major or minor? Ok then, no more questions to ask.

damn.. that would simplify things.

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

only noobs (and nils, because of contractual requirements) are shooting minor.

True,  but if half the participants are using gear that doesn't really fit, something might be broken.  

[SufferInSilence]

1 minute ago, scroadkill said:

damn.. that would simplify things.

That’ what Open division is for.  Shoot what you want, how you want and have fun.  Open just looks more exclusive because everyone ended up in an arms race just to have basically the same gear on a $4k+ “open” gun. 
The major/minor PF thing seems to be the road block that makes a maze out of the hole thing.   
I don’t hate the idea of LO… But I’d also say throw it in CO and be done with it.  
 

You really can’t say a steel framed CZ, T-fo, Walther Q5 S, 320 TXG etc… is at so much disadvantage to a 2011.  
If it is, do some push ups, run some laps, dry fire, or take a class from your fave GM.  It isn’t the arrow, it’s the Indian.   

 

Remember, regardless you are still only shooting against others in ‘your’ division anyway.  Don’t like a dot on a 2011, don’t shoot it.  
The baby went out with the bath water when PCC became a thing.  Not sure why so much more controversy over a dot on a 2011…?  

[erwos]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:35 PM, MikeRussell said:

Just put Prod & CO at 15 rounds, institute Limited & LO keeping all the current Ltd Div rules, get rid of L10 (provisions are already in the rules for mag ban states), leave everything else alone. Problem solved. 

The proposed L10 rules are fantastic. They need to modify and rename the division. Special or Modified, something like that.

 

I more or less agree with the rest, but good luck getting CO shooters to go back to 15rds after running 140mm sticks.

[MikeRussell]

28 minutes ago, erwos said:

I more or less agree with the rest, but good luck getting CO shooters to go back to 15rds after running 140mm sticks.

 

They wouldn't have to, they would just shoot LO if they don't want to use factory length mags. 

[MikeBurgess]

18 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i wonder if it would be feasible to word the rules to allow combining similar divisions at smaller matches, so as to get enough participants to be recognized. i don’t see any reason to combine ss and prod at nationals, but it might make more sense at a local or even a section match where there might only be a handful in each division.  maybe if there are fewer than 10 shooters (or 5, or 7, or wutever), allow the md to combine with a reasonably similar division.

I have suggested a few times that the rules allow for Local matches to have more experimenting with divisions, lets try stuff locally then we can sort out the good ideas and move them to the national level once we know they work.

 

 

[RJH]

19 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i wonder if it would be feasible to word the rules to allow combining similar divisions at smaller matches, so as to get enough participants to be recognized. i don’t see any reason to combine ss and prod at nationals, but it might make more sense at a local or even a section match where there might only be a handful in each division.  maybe if there are fewer than 10 shooters (or 5, or 7, or wutever), allow the md to combine with a reasonably similar division.

 

6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have suggested a few times that the rules allow for Local matches to have more experimenting with divisions, lets try stuff locally then we can sort out the good ideas and move them to the national level once we know they work.

 

 

 

I like these ideas, if approved I wonder if it could be as simple as a shooter would sign up for their division, let's say production. Then practiscore could automatically file them into a low cap division where production, L10, revolver, single stack all shoot against each other for the match, but when the scores get sent in to USPSA people's classifiers go to the correct division.

 

I am not a computer programmer, so I don't know how difficult it would be to make that happen. 

 

And I'm sure other nuances would need to be worked out as well

 

 

[Fishbreath]

You can already combine arbitrary divisions with my result viewer, which I wrote in large part because I wanted to be able to compare myself to locap (when shooting revolver) or everyone-minus-PCC (when shooting hicap).

[ChuckS]

20 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

You have set the humor bar way high the first week of the year! Well Done!

[ChuckS]

If you guys want to mush divisions together to see your fantasy results, Practiscore Competitor is your huckleberry...

[sfinney]

More like huckle bearer.

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

If you guys want to mush divisions together to see your fantasy results, Practiscore Competitor is your huckleberry...

 

That's not really what Moto was getting at I don't think. I think he was trying to have a way for people whose division wouldn't have enough participation alone to be combined with another like division so that a shooter wouldn't feel forced to shoot something they didn't really want to just to have an official division result. Obviously we can look at overalls now, but I think maybe he was trying to do something to make it a little more official, I guess? 

 

I thought it sounded like a solid idea, because a lot of times where I'm at you have one or two single stack guys, one or two production guys, and one or two L10 guys. Here if you get enough people in One division you can win a coupon LOL. Last month I shot L10 with my single stack gun just so that one of us could win a coupon. I know a coupon don't sound like much, but it's the most major award most ever win at a match

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

That's not really what Moto was getting at I don't think. I think he was trying to have a way for people whose division wouldn't have enough participation alone to be combined with another like division so that a shooter wouldn't feel forced to shoot something they didn't really want to just to have an official division result.

correct. example, i'm working a section match in may. out of 176 competitors, there are 0 in L10, 2 in SS, 2 in revo, and 7 in prod.

[euxx]

43 minutes ago, RJH said:

That's not really what Moto was getting at I don't think. I think he was trying to have a way for people whose division wouldn't have enough participation alone to be combined with another like division so that a shooter wouldn't feel forced to shoot something they didn't really want to just to have an official division result. Obviously we can look at overalls now, but I think maybe he was trying to do something to make it a little more official, I guess? 

 

Somehow everyone forgot about APPENDIX A2 in the USPSA rule book.

There are requirements for minimum competitors per Division. They are only a recommendation for L1 and L2 matches, but that does allow an MD to move competitors from the low-attended divisions. E.g. low-attended Revolver, SS and Prod can be all moved to a Limited to be recognized at a given match.

Though I don't see that done automatically by PractiScore, because there are too many unknown things in the mess... But for tracking purposes this can be handled as declared vs. actual division in the PractiScore match results.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

I like these ideas, if approved I wonder if it could be as simple as a shooter would sign up for their division, let's say production. Then practiscore could automatically file them into a low cap division where production, L10, revolver, single stack all shoot against each other for the match, but when the scores get sent in to USPSA people's classifiers go to the correct division.

 

I am not a computer programmer, so I don't know how difficult it would be to make that happen. 

 

And I'm sure other nuances would need to be worked out as well

 

 

Practiscore Competitor app lets you look at combined divisions, anytime I shoot  a dead division I look at all the low cap combined