Limited Optics

[caspian guy]

My take was limited optic if they allow major/minor scoring, otherwise just put minor sao guns in carry optics and call it a day (if they insist let them have magwells)   Given how CO has morphed and that many of the striker fired guns with aftermarket triggers are indistinguishable from sao guns anyway, allowing sao in CO feels life a realitively minor change.

 

15 rounds in prod? Sure... I don't think it will revive it but it's worth a shot.

Edited December 29, 2022 by caspian guy

[Zachjet]

Change isn’t a bad thing. 
but making a division that’s basically magwell Carry ops OR open minor less compensators. Is just stupid 

[71Commander]

20 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

Now we only need three divisions

Optic and compensator (old Open)

Optic no compensator (new LO + old CO)

Iron sight.  Any gun, who cares, they are all obsolete.  

 

Not to get sidetracked here but I noticed that with the new L-10 options, they were going to allow revo's with optics.

[erwos]

I wish they would have done Prod Optics and Limited Optics and then gotten rid of Carry Optics. Also voted in favor of Prod getting a cap bump. And Limited 10 going optics is a brilliant idea that I fully support (arguably the single best change, in fact).

 

The "attract new people to the sport" thing is unlikely. The number of people who only own a 9mm 2011 is pretty small. Most of them bought their 9mm 2011 after already owning a gun that would work well enough in Prod or CO. I don't think the desire to compete is about what gun you own so much as what mindset you have.

[Eli_a]

A little late to this discussion (18 hours-ish)

 

I would be against bringing in 2011s into carry optics if the division actually was true to what  “carry optics” means. Since it’s basically limited/open minor now, just allow SAO guns into CO. We all know that no one is going to win their state or section, or even nats, because they swapped out their Canik for a staccato. So just add SAO to CO and be done with it. 

I definitely do not like the idea of creating another division. I have no data or a survey to prove this but I foresee shooters will move from their division to LO, and thus not really adding that many more members. 
Could we get maybe 30-45 new members? Sure, but is that worth it? 

 

What really bothers me is that early on this year USPSA leadership said they are not considering adding LO, but here we are voting on it with the illusion of choice.
Everyone knows setting up for a division costs a lot of money, so this constant change, secrecy, and “i know something y’all don’t know” is annoying.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Eli_a
Typo

[shred]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

it is far easier and far cheaper to add a frame mount to an existing limited gun than it is to mill the slide to accept an optic. If frame mounts are allowed, I will put one on my limited gun, (and I will still be able to use the iron sites if needed.)if it is slide mount only, I will probably completely ignore a limited optic division.

Plus you can unscrew or saw off the comp on most any Open gun and be good to go unless they do 40-major, and then I'm gonna picket HQ for the return of IPSC Modified.

 

One note from having tried it-- either get a mount designed to clear it or be prepared to knock the front sight out if you bolt a frame mount to a Lim gun.

 

ATM its easier and faster to add a brand new division than modify one... that's also wacked.

 

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, shred said:

the return of IPSC Modified

 

The revised L10 is basically only a box away, now.

[Zincwarrior]

Interesting that the classic Six X - Five came out recently. 

[Sestock]

On 12/28/2022 at 8:37 AM, echotango said:

Stupid that they did not include major.  They are losing a lot of shooters that I would imagine would put a dot on their 40 Lim gun.  Otherwise it is glorified CO and minor open. 

We already have open

[Sestock]

3 hours ago, Cuz said:

Truthfully, I think the solution would be to get rid of Carry Optics and roll those shooters into Limited Optics. 
 

No, put them in open

[mikeg1005]

10 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

it is far easier and far cheaper to add a frame mount to an existing limited gun than it is to mill the slide to accept an optic. If frame mounts are allowed, I will put one on my limited gun, (and I will still be able to use the iron sites if needed.)if it is slide mount only, I will probably completely ignore a limited optic division.

 

You can buy an optic mount for a bomar slide cut for like $50.  

 

If they truly allow frame mounted optics then they need to just call it what it is "muzzle device-less open" because that's what it will be lol. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Cuz said:

Truthfully, I think the solution would be to get rid of Carry Optics and roll those shooters into Limited Optics. 
 

 

Oh yeah great plan.  Take the absolute most popular division in the sport and completely f*#k it up.

 

I think you should send that to your AD for consideration

[Bdh821]

I voted for PCC Major PF!

[Climbhard]

3 hours ago, caspian guy said:

My take was limited optic if they allow major/minor scoring, otherwise just put minor sao guns in carry optics and call it a day (if they insist let them have magwells)   Given how CO has morphed and that many of the striker fired guns with aftermarket triggers are indistinguishable from sao guns anyway, allowing sao in CO feels life a realitively minor change.

 

15 rounds in prod? Sure... I don't think it will revive it but it's worth a shot.

This

[obsessiveshooter]

There should be divisions for the pistols people aspire to own, so I agree that the prodigy type guns needed a place to compete. 

 

But as a Limited major shooter, I lament the dilution of the competition across a ton of divisions.  It was exciting to shoot Limited years ago when everyone shot it. Now, not so much. Things change, so I guess I just need to learn to shoot a dot if I want to start enjoying USPSA again.  But with the volatility of the rules etc, it would be hard to know what to buy into. Definitely not a striker fired pistol, because what if they merged CO and LO next year?

[mikeg1005]

2 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

But with the volatility of the rules etc, it would be hard to know what to buy into. Definitely not a striker fired pistol, because what if they merged CO and LO next year?

 

This, exactly.   USPSA changing rules on such a large scale is the worst thing they can do for new members and member retention.  

 

 

 

[deerslayer]

12 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

There should be divisions for the pistols people aspire to own, so I agree that the prodigy type guns needed a place to compete. 

 

But as a Limited major shooter, I lament the dilution of the competition across a ton of divisions.  It was exciting to shoot Limited years ago when everyone shot it. Now, not so much. Things change, so I guess I just need to learn to shoot a dot if I want to start enjoying USPSA again.  But with the volatility of the rules etc, it would be hard to know what to buy into. Definitely not a striker fired pistol, because what if they merged CO and LO next year?

Same here - Limited major is my favorite.  I voted for LO with major (Limited will suffer either way).  If major is not allowed, they will end up combining CO and LO.  Whatever the case, now is a lousy time to buy anything due to rules/equipment uncertainty.  

[waktasz]

The whole point is people buying off the shelf 9mm Staccatos and other dopey guns with no division to shoot in right now. Lim Optics having major is never going to happen

[-JCN-]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:10 PM, touji said:

 

It’s a travesty they didn’t add major PF to this. There is so little difference from current CO for this to make sense. It makes more sense to allow SAO guns in CO and maintain CO accessory rule set.

 

If CO is going to be 50% of all USPSA, should we add more guns to have it turn into 70% of all entrants?

 

That might get unwieldy?  From a logistical standpoint, they might WANT to break up the participation in the largest division instead of making the largest division larger…

 

 

On 12/28/2022 at 8:37 AM, rowdyb said:

No one shooting 40 major will tune their gun to shoot 40 minor and get it milled for a dot.

 

Conversion barrel and milling…

 

Did it to my TSO 40… now a 9mm LO gun.

 

 

On 12/28/2022 at 9:10 AM, akarhi said:

Membership might increase or decrease who knows with this but there is absolutely no reason to create a new division. Just make merge it with CO

 

 

Again possible logistics? Too popular of a single division might be unwieldy?

 

On 12/28/2022 at 9:34 AM, twodownzero said:

 

Adding Carry Optics and rifles to this game ruined the enjoyment for me.  I just let my membership lapse after 15 years.  Nobody cares about the 10 shot divisions anymore and the entire thing has simply become a hose fest.  The last straw for me was a 30 round stage broken into "strings" even though it had one array of targets and one shooting area where I got to do standing reloads for the entire stage. 

 

Destroying major power factor by having the two largest divisions also left behind a principle of practical shooting.  That never should have been allowed.

 

We have always had a place for Carry Optics and Limited Optics--in Open.  We avoided an arms race for 25+ years which all ended with someone opening Pandora's box and now there is no fixing it.  Optics should have never, ever been allowed outside of Open.

 

25 years ago, technology wasn’t what it is now. That’s like saying electric cars killed manual transmission vehicles. It’s not the same world as it was 25 years ago. Adapt or die.

 

In a world where new LEO graduating classes are issued RDS on their duty guns, irons are going the way of the dodo. Like irons on rifles.

 

That’s the new reality of what a “normal” carry gun and duty gun is going to be.

 

23 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

What evidence do you have of this?  I am asking as an actual inquiry as when I looked at it the availability of reloading supplies and the flooding of the whole country with gun purchases in the late Obama years seem to sprout growth in shooting sports/guns overall. 

 

Is there data of new USPSA numbers and them going into CO? 

As mentioned above, yes. The article in the USPSA mag had lists of what new members started competing in and CO was huge.

 

It’s that way locally. Most new shooters these days start with dots.

 

In 5 years it’ll be almost everyone.

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by -JCN-

[twodownzero]

1 minute ago, -JCN- said:

25 years ago, technology wasn’t what it is now. That’s like saying electric cars killed manual transmission vehicles. It’s not the same world as it was 25 years ago. Adapt or die.

 

It's amusing that you mention that because I don't drive electric cars or automatic transmissions, either.

 

I let my membership lapse and I'm going to continue to enjoy SASS, precision rifle, etc.  USPSA doesn't care about its long time members anymore.

 

There is and always has been a place for experimentation and new things in USPSA.  It's called Open.  And the sport was better for all of us when that's where it stayed.  Now it's just an arms race.

[Zachjet]

I shot my first match in production.  And instantly sent my slide to be milled.  
shooting a dot is just more fun.  And I sent my slide away without ever shooting a RDS

[rowdyb]

Here is the article titled "Analyzing the 7 year history of uspsa carry optics competition" that has all the numbers. Extremely insightful as someone who tried it out and then walked away from it right before it got popular. (For example shooting state matches when there would be SINGLE DIGIT CO competitors for the whole division)

 

https://www.ssusa.org/content/analyzing-the-7-year-history-of-uspsa-carry-optics-competition/

[twodownzero]

50 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

There should be divisions for the pistols people aspire to own, so I agree that the prodigy type guns needed a place to compete.

 

That is what Open is.

[touji]

14 minutes ago, waktasz said:

The whole point is people buying off the shelf 9mm Staccatos and other dopey guns with no division to shoot in right now. Lim Optics having major is never going to happen

They have a division, they just don’t want to compete in it

[deerslayer]

15 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Lim Optics having major is never going to happen

But it would be fun