Limited Optics

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

If LO happens it will still end up looking like limited.  You're going to have 2011s dominate (ranging from people with 9mm STIs with dots milled all the way to the most expensive SVs) due to mag capacity and ease of finding parts and you'll have a small % of other people showing up with the other guns but not many. 

 

And people actually enjoy shooting 2011s the most, but saying you have to have a $4000+ dollar gun to compete is not true

 

 

4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

They can and do but people opt from 2011s due to mag capacity over CZ and tangfo.  

 

 

We have already discussed this, but since you can get 23+ 1 in a CZ, I am not sure it's an issue 

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This is not true in every instance.  Max round count in my 2011 mags is 23+1, and I can get that round count in my CZ Shadow 2 and P320s.

 

I can 24+1 in an SV 9mm 142mm mag and in limited 40cal mags are usually 1-2rds over CZ, Tanfos, and Glocks (Confirmed by people who shoot them).  I don't think its enough of a factor to impact the division overall, more of a thing to consider when buying a new gun.  

[mikeg1005]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

And people actually enjoy shooting 2011s the most, but saying you have to have a $4000+ dollar gun to compete is not true

 

 

 

We have already discussed this, but since you can get 23+ 1 in a CZ, I am not sure it's an issue 

 

You can get 24+1 in a 2011 but in reality... Nils just won limited with a $400 plastic minor gun.  None if this 'actually' matters.    

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by mikeg1005

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

142mm

 

Fits the USPSA gage?

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I can 24+1 in an SV 9mm 142mm mag and in limited 40cal mags are usually 1-2rds over CZ, Tanfos, and Glocks (Confirmed by people who shoot them).  I don't think its enough of a factor to impact the division overall, more of a thing to consider when buying a new gun.  

 

So you are saying you can get 24 rounds in a mag that doesn't fit the guage?

[mikeg1005]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

Fits the USPSA gage?

 

Sorry... 141.25" (rounded up incorrectly)

 

Yes it does.  

[mikeg1005]

Just now, RJH said:

 

So you are saying you can get 24 rounds in a mag that doesn't fit the guage?

 

I mean 141.25mm, brain fart and called it a 142mm. 

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

We have seen a crap-ton of new shooters at our club in the last year or two, and the majority of them are shooting CO. Many of them showed up for the first time with guns they already had for carry or home/car defense that fit fine in CO.

 

Initially I do think the big numbers in CO was due to division Poaching.  We now see what @motosapiens sees in regards to participation in our Section.  We really do not see much Division poaching into CO anymore because those who wanted to switch already have.  New shooters tend to start or move into CO relatively quickly.  

[waktasz]

24+1 in my Tanfo, easy. Losers  

[Zachjet]

I can get 24/1 in my tanfo mags 

That last one is hard as f*#k to get in. But I can.  I mostly shoot in L10 mag states tho so it don’t matter to me 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

24+1 in my Tanfo, easy. Losers  

 

Thanks for blowing another supposed reason that guns can't compete with a 2011 out of the water

 

I've got a plastic gun that I can get 24 in one but I'm still not sure it works. I haven't been brave enough to try it at a match yet and I haven't had it together when I was just goofing off

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Thanks for blowing another supposed reason that guns can't compete with a 2011 out of the water

 

 

Excellent, now we can put them in CO instead their own division lol. 

[Boomstick303]

43 minutes ago, Dfehr401 said:

Most people already in the uspsa string are die hard to there division.  You just have a new group of tac timmys at matches. 

 

In my opinion if LO becomes a sanctioned division, LO and CO will be the top two divisions in the next 3-5 years.  

 

Increasing Production to 15 rounds will not make a lick of difference in participation numbers in Production.  Maybe 141 mm mags might, but not a 15 round capacity.

 

Optic and High Capacity mag Divisions will lead the way.  Its obvious that is what the market is dictating.  

[Bdh821]

1 hour ago, ampleworks said:

 

STI turned their back on people who built their company chasing blue line dollars. Pepperidge Farm remembers when they produced a pair of guns that had the USPSA logo engraved on the slide. If I ever go back to wanting a 2011, it'll come from SVI or someone else who actually won't spit in our faces.

 

Edit: I can't spell

ive owned 5 open guns since the fall of STI.  I think I'm done with open as ive sold them all

[waktasz]

14 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Thanks for blowing another supposed reason that guns can't compete with a 2011 out of the water

 

I've got a plastic gun that I can get 24 in one but I'm still not sure it works. I haven't been brave enough to try it at a match yet and I haven't had it together when I was just goofing off

 

My 2011s still shoot a lot better than my tanfo

[BritinUSA]

I think this is mostly vendor driven; With advances in dot technology it is inevitable that more competitors will migrate away from iron-sights. Creating a Limited/Optics (or Standard/Optics in IPSC) seems sound.

 

If the existing Limited/Standard rules applied but with the addition of a dot then the cost to convert for the members is reasonable, slide milling + dot.

 

By establishing the new division as Minor openly it causes two problems; The first is one of cost, for many it will require a significant investment as custom 2011's are expensive. The second is one of differential, there is essentially no difference between USPSA's CO division and the proposed LO division. Basically just a magwell.

 

Every CO gun is eligible for LO; Competitors will shoot classifiers in both divisions which will skew the participation numbers. There will be a stand-alone LO Nationals as every CO shooter could enter two stand-alone Nationals with the same equipment.

 

They could keep LO as Major/Minor (and perhaps lower the PF to 150) or if they insist on keep it Minor only then perhaps consider merging CO and LO as they are essentially the same. Then re-introduce ProdOptics as it was intended (but with 15 rounds, and do the same with Production)

 

This proposal as it stands is the worst scenario, it waters down the competition and drives expenses to the competitor. It adds another Nationals when the org loses money on them every year.

 

 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

Curious if this will increase wait times at all of the 2011 shops significantly?

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

Curious if this will increase wait times at all of the 2011 shops significantly?

 

Not at all.  Most of those lead times are due to builders taking their time vs. backlog.  

[echotango]

Are the ones wanting SA in CO ok with it in Production? 

Edited December 28, 2022 by echotango

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, CC3D said:

Makes sense to me. CO is fine- but we didn't need another division. Those guys you're referring to would have been plenty happy shooting open

 

have you been reading this forum the last 6 months? there is an incessant stream of crying and moaning from 4-5 guys who only want to shoot their 9mm 2011's in a division where they have a significant advantage over everyone else. The tears about 'getting killed in open' have been flowing pretty much non-stop.

[Boomstick303]

I asked this in a previous thread but the thread was closed immediately upon posting it.  So will post it here with some tweaks.

 

A serious question here without any bias involved in the question.  Please answer honestly as I will defer to those being around USPSA way longer than I have. 

 

Is the reason that 2011s dominate Limited and Open due to the nature of Major PF?   The reason I ask this is you see many people in these two divisions that have been here for years if not over a decade using only 2011s.  We see some try other platforms but they do not seem to work out for one reason or another and for the most part due to Major PF beating the crap out of the gun.  We do not see many other guns other than 2011 style guns due to Major PF to where other platforms cannot handle the abuse.   Hence, for the most part (obviously there are few exceptions here) when Major PF is involved in the Division, everyone with half a brain is going to shoot Major and the 2011 platform is really the only platform that can handle the abuse in the long term.  

 

I ask this because have we seen a division like CO where there are already proven and successful platforms participating in the Division which are not 2011s, upon which SAO guns were allowed to participate later.  Do have a truly representative data point that points 2011s taking over a Division that already has proven platforms that work? 

 

Have we seen a minor division that allows Red dots, high capacity mags, and SAO triggers from the start?  We have not.  I do not think any of us could say either way with any degree of certainty what would happen to CO if SAO triggers were allowed, in regards to 2011s dominating that division.  For me it would be more a point of interest in what direction it would go more so than caring if 2011s platforms dominate or not.  

 

I have a feeling 2011s will not dominate LO as much as some might think.  My assumption is, it will look nothing like Open and Limited in regards to the use of 2011s in those divisions.  If Major PF were allowed in LO I think you would see 2011s dominate the Division, just as they do in Limited and Open due to the nature of Major, not the platform itself.  

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Boomstick303

[pskys2]

How about removing optics restrictions in all divisions?  Or at least in limited, production (and do the 140mm mags) and revolver, though I'd not fret over it on s s also.

Would simplify things.  

[RJH]

Hell, plastic guns already dominate limited

 

 

There are just a few whiners on Enos that like to shiver in fear anytime Sao in co is brought up, even though Sao guns don't even keep up in limited. Those same whiners are generally shooting heavy ass CZs that weigh more than many 2011s, cause they have girly hands that can't handle 9mm recoil out of a plastic gun 

[Boomstick303]

Just now, pskys2 said:

How about removing optics restrictions in all divisions? 

 

Curious to how many people would so no to this? 

 

It is a baffling requirement.

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Those same whiners are generally shooting heavy ass CZs that weigh more than many 2011s, cause they have girly hands that can't handle 9mm recoil out of a plastic gun 

 

I noted this as well but did not find pointing this out as helpful to the discussion, but it was noted.