Limited Optics

[RJH]

My comment will be to put them in carryops, but if that is a non starter I will be fine with it being a stand alone division 

[Zachjet]

This thread is certainly entertaining

if you don’t like LO don’t shoot it.  Who gives a f*#k what people do. 

[TaterHead]

The fact that USPSA is soliciting feedback is remarkable in itself.

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, Kwontanamo said:

Other than 3-gun or tactical games, LO doesn't carry over into IPSC divisions...or does it?

No, there is nothing in IPSC like LO.

 

Based on the success of a Production Optics in IPSC, I think it's possible that they may address a Standard Optics at some point.
 

If they do, I hope they will keep it a direct copy of Standard ie. Major/Minor with a dot and all the rest of the rules stay the same. This will help to differentiate it from ProdOptics. 

[BritinUSA]

5 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

The fact that USPSA is soliciting feedback is remarkable in itself.

They have done this before, whether they listen to that feedback is another issue. They rarely show all the feedback they receive so they  control the narrative completely.

[Dazhi]

IPSC Production Optics Light provisional division has not been popular enough, and now it's "cut" but IPSC merged it into Production Optics division.   Could that happen to Limited Optics in USPSA, e.g. ending up being merged into CO because it's not popular enough (or as popular as CO)?

 

 

[TaterHead]

I don’t recall getting an email from uspsa asking for feedback before. I’ve been a member for over 20 years. I think I would have remembered.

[shred]

They collected feedback on the website for the bylaws changes a year minus 2-weeks ago, but I think my comments were largely ignored.

 

[Dazhi]

8 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I advocated to allow SAO in CO, but some how, some way people think its makes a marked difference in the standings to allow those guns.  It doesn't, but they are entitled to their opinions.  

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I know myself shooting a 9mm Titan iron sight can beat myself shooting a Stock 2 iron sight by about 3-5%.  So yes I personally think 2011 definitely has an edge.  Whether I should sell all my 8 Stock 2's and a kidney to buy a pair of Athenas, that's the question. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Dazhi

[llamasabound]

22 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

Yes, I know myself shooting a 9mm Titan iron sight can beat myself shooting a Stock 2 iron sight by about 3-5%.  So yes I personally think 2011 definitely has an edge.  Whether I should sell all my 8 Stock 2's and a kidney to buy a pair of Athenas, that's the question. 

nyx or nothing baby!

[ltdmstr]

USPSA Surveys - USPSA.ORG

[Zachjet]

Damm. This is a big one

 

dont understand why they’d ask about frame mounted optics 

 

Basically open minor with no comp…

Edited December 29, 2022 by Zachjet

[KlausN]

Not being heavily involved in USPSA but having fun shooting the question in my mind always was "what is the purpose of a division?"  Reading this thread, I see two reoccurring points.  One separation by performance and two separation by cost.  If this is the real goal, USPSA could look at other sports, auto racing for example and try to shape the divisions.

1. Open-wheel  (F1 or  Indy), money is no object and the pinnacle of performance this might be similar to open

2. Sports car, non production prototypes built for racing but with limitation (DTM, WTCC, SC) this class could incorporate Limited guns with or without dot or possibly two classes if they are different in performance Limited and Limited Optic.  Expensive guns built for sport (racing)

3. Production (SCAA) or Stock car.  This could be a production and a production optic class limited to 15rds to create more interest and keep the guns 'cheap' without modifications.

4. Old s#!t e.g. 1911 and revolver

A setup like this would create 4 main divisions with some subdivisions.  This idea could be modified by people who are more involved in the shooting sport but it would divide divisions by cost and performance / modification levels. Power factor or performance level could be used to equalize the subdivisions by some type of handicap e.g. minor vs major or other handicap 'adjustments'. 

 

[SufferInSilence]

Here’s the link to the survey. 
make your voice known, whatever the opinion is.  
Cheers. 

https://uspsa.org/surveys

 

[OPENB]

10 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

Why are so many of you concerned about "a place" to put new shooters?

New shooters show up with what they have, they get put in limited or open if they can't go into production or CO.  They shoot their first match(es) and they figure out wtf they want to do and adjust their equipment accordingly.  Its what EVERYONE has done.  Why do you guys want to make a 'competitive' division for newbies?  Why do you guys want to make a division for people who can't be bother to buy a gun to be competitive in an existing division?  

 

You're going to screw over current members in open, limited, and probably CO... in efforts to allow the random timmies or people who bought a SAO slide ride gun to have a safe space to play in. 

Wow, I do have to agree here. Sorry for quoting such an old post, I’m working my way thru all this. 

[caspian guy]

Just took the survey.   For once it looks they are actually asking the right questions. Maybe something will come of it.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

Yes, I know myself shooting a 9mm Titan iron sight can beat myself shooting a Stock 2 iron sight by about 3-5%.  So yes I personally think 2011 definitely has an edge.  Whether I should sell all my 8 Stock 2's and a kidney to buy a pair of Athenas, that's the question. 

normally, I would make fun of a post like this but I have seen you shoot. I am surprised you think the difference is that large. I would guess about half that, but my skill level is about half of yours. I appreciate you sharing your experience in this thread.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Zachjet said:

Damm. This is a big one

 

dont understand why they’d ask about frame mounted optics 

 

 

it is far easier and far cheaper to add a frame mount to an existing limited gun than it is to mill the slide to accept an optic. If frame mounts are allowed, I will put one on my limited gun, (and I will still be able to use the iron sites if needed.)if it is slide mount only, I will probably completely ignore a limited optic division.

Edited December 29, 2022 by motosapiens

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

Yes, I know myself shooting a 9mm Titan iron sight can beat myself shooting a Stock 2 iron sight by about 3-5%.  So yes I personally think 2011 definitely has an edge.  Whether I should sell all my 8 Stock 2's and a kidney to buy a pair of Athenas, that's the question. 

 

Quoting this for when the inevitable "a 2011 makes no difference" crew wakes up.

 

 

[Norther]

I like major scoring. “Power” is one of the three tenets the sport was founded with. 
 

I told them I’m in favor IF it’s scored major. If not, then just expand Carry Optics to include single actions. 
 

And don’t tell me I can’t do something that makes me slower and less accurate! Don’t mandate the optic. Name the division something without “optic” in the name. 

[Norther]

I’ll add this: I like allowing an optic in L10 more…

[Zachjet]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

it is far easier and far cheaper to add a frame mount to an existing limited gun than it is to mill the slide to accept an optic. If frame mounts are allowed, I will put one on my limited gun, (and I will still be able to use the iron sites if needed.)if it is slide mount only, I will probably completely ignore a limited optic division.

I understand that.  But then they’d just be creating a “poor man’s open”.  
 

rather then a second CO 

[Cuz]

Truthfully, I think the solution would be to get rid of Carry Optics and roll those shooters into Limited Optics. 
 

[konkapot]

I've been a member since 2000 and I think it's great they are soliciting feedback. Random thoughts

 

1. .40 is dying in the civilian/LE world. So what? Not relevant to our game or this debate. 

2. There is a place for 9mm minor 2011 with dots already. 

3. Production 15? Meh. Don't think it will revive Production, but certainly won't hurt it. 

4. L10 with a dot? So weird I'd actually shoot it. 

 

[Nc1911]

USPSA rule changes is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic,

 causing a number of people to not renew their membership.