pskys2 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Curious to how many people would so no to this? It is a baffling requirement. And I am one who would stick with iron sights but would support the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: I noted this as well but did not find pointing this out as helpful to the discussion, but it was noted. I probably should have left it alone, but couldn't resist I'll try to do better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, RJH said: I probably should have left it alone, but couldn't resist I'll try to do better We whiners gonna whine, and point out FACTS!! Edited December 28, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 43 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: I asked this in a previous thread but the thread was closed immediately upon posting it. So will post it here with some tweaks. A serious question here without any bias involved in the question. Please answer honestly as I will defer to those being around USPSA way longer than I have. Is the reason that 2011s dominate Limited and Open due to the nature of Major PF? The reason I ask this is you see many people in these two divisions that have been here for years if not over a decade using only 2011s. We see some try other platforms but they do not seem to work out for one reason or another and for the most part due to Major PF beating the crap out of the gun. We do not see many other guns other than 2011 style guns due to Major PF to where other platforms cannot handle the abuse. Hence, for the most part (obviously there are few exceptions here) when Major PF is involved in the Division, everyone with half a brain is going to shoot Major and the 2011 platform is really the only platform that can handle the abuse in the long term. I ask this because have we seen a division like CO where there are already proven and successful platforms participating in the Division which are not 2011s, upon which SAO guns were allowed to participate later. Do have a truly representative data point that points 2011s taking over a Division that already has proven platforms that work? Have we seen a minor division that allows Red dots, high capacity mags, and SAO triggers from the start? We have not. I do not think any of us could say either way with any degree of certainty what would happen to CO if SAO triggers were allowed, in regards to 2011s dominating that division. For me it would be more a point of interest in what direction it would go more so than caring if 2011s platforms dominate or not. I have a feeling 2011s will not dominate LO as much as some might think. My assumption is, it will look nothing like Open and Limited in regards to the use of 2011s in those divisions. If Major PF were allowed in LO I think you would see 2011s dominate the Division, just as they do in Limited and Open due to the nature of Major, not the platform itself. You may have an argument for Open guns, but there are all kinds of Limited guns that hold up to .40 major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, deerslayer said: but there are all kinds of Limited guns that hold up to .40 major. On the inception of the Division? Today there are but I was not around when Limited became a thing. Today I agree its a perception versus a requirement. Edited December 28, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magdumper Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 31 minutes ago, pskys2 said: How about removing optics restrictions in all divisions? Or at least in limited, production (and do the 140mm mags) and revolver, though I'd not fret over it on s s also. Would simplify things. This is basically my thoughts, optics are a huge upgrade on any gun and shooters new and old alike like to shoot with them both in competition and for defensive guns. They are a huge competitive upgrade and it isn't fun to basically be relegated to CO if you don't want to shoot a rifle or an open gun. I would love shooting rev or ss with a dot, since that is how I would carry the gun. Noone shoots irons on rifles in 3 guns anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Quote I have a feeling 2011s will not dominate LO as much as some might think Had the division included Major then it would almost certainly dominate the LO division. As they have elected to use Minor only then 2011 will probably be much smaller than anticipated. Every existing CO gun is eligible for Limited Optics, those guns will dominate the division if it moves forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 hour ago, RJH said: even though Sao guns don't even keep up in limited. LOL that's straight up bulls#!t and everyone knows it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, mikeg1005 said: and its been proven that 2011s are an advantage over other guns. By who? Where is this person's data and analysis? All I see are opinions. Don't bring up Nils Johnasson. He's an outlier and irrelevant to the discussion. Edited December 28, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: All I see are opinions. Like your opinion. Edited December 28, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: Don't bring up Nils Johnasson. He's an outlier and irrelevant to the discussion. How is he irrelevant? I do not think he would appreciate that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scroadkill Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Not to get all chatty on this.. but Limited Optics makes sense to help save limited guns... and a lot of folks love 2011s but dont want to shoot open. Carry optics is bloated. Carry optics as is killed limited and production. neither is good for the game. now bump production to 15 rounds and cut CO to 15 rounds to separate CO from LO. This should bring new life back to limited major, and production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Just now, Boomstick303 said: How is he irrelevant? I do not think he would appreciate that comment. Do you lack reading comprehension? Do you understand what an outlier is in regards to data analysis? Don't you dare try turning what I said into a personal insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 55 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: On the inception of the Division? Today there are but I was not around when Limited became a thing. Today I agree its a perception versus a requirement. Yes, Glocks and the like could easily run 175PF major when Limited started. Factory white-box loads made major. STI's weren't even legal for Limited when it first came out because they hadn't made the required number of pistols at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Like your opinion. You are one of the major instigators in the "data shows" game Put your data and analysis, that you claim proves 2011s or SAO pistols hold no advantage in CO, for all to see. I know I've asked more than once and have yet to see it. I do wonder why that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: LOL that's straight up bulls#!t and everyone knows it Everyone except for: Dave sevigny Robert Vogel Kc eucibio Mason Lane Shane coley Eric grauffel And yes even Nils Jonnason. Probably some others I'm not even thinking about, these are just off the top of my head. But yeah the gun matters. Maybe you should just learn to shoot your 45-oz carryops gun, or did you throw some brass grips on her and get her up over 50. Heck, maybe you could even learn to take a safety off and you could shoot it in the new limited optics division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Just now, Johnny_Chimpo said: Don't you dare try turning what I said into a personal insult. I did no such thing. Anyone winning Limited shooting minor regardless of the platform is not meaningless. It is simply amazing you want to count him as an outlier. Are you suggesting that any of the top Limited shooters could not shoot a plastic gun and not finish well at Nationals? He obviously shoots Canik for reasons he chooses. People who shoot any Division at a high level choose the gun the like to shoot or are paid to shoot. They train with that Platform to a point where they dominate their Division(s). To me its not an outlier it is just the platform he chooses to shoot. But you guys want to twist it into something it isn't. Mason shoots a plastic gun too due to his relationship with various entities. I guess those two are Unicorns and have done something that has never been done. Oh wait it has been done before. Everything you have said in regards to this is based on YOUR opinion just as for anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Nils shot a 2011 at Major PF at the World Shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Just now, shred said: Nils shot a 2011 at the World Shoot. I think he might have shot one at the world shoot this year as well, but I can't guarantee it. He was scored as major, but he didn't win. Maybe he should have took his canik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 That was the World Shoot I was referring to. He did say he missed his Canik a couple times at the practice match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: I know I've asked more than once and have yet to see it. I do wonder why that is. I have pointed it out, but you and others have indicated it is invalid. CO in IDPA tells you everything you need to know. But You choose your opinion over proven data. CO in IDPA is not inodiated with 2011s but somehow you experts think that is invalid. Another question I have is does Major PF drive the use of the 2011 platform? Have we seen a Division in USPSA that allows SAO and minor PF only with High capacity mags? We have not. We no longer need to wonder. It looks like we will find out first hand with LO. Edited December 28, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Just now, Boomstick303 said: I have pointed it out, but you and others have indicated it is invalid. CO in IDPA tells you everything you need to know. But You choose your opinion over proven data. CO in IDPA is not inodiated with 2011s but somehow you experts think that is invalid. IDPA is irrelevant to this conversation. Their scoring system and their CO magazine capacity limit make any comparison to how USPSA is shot completely void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: Their scoring system and their CO magazine capacity limit make any comparison to how USPSA is shot completely void. LMAO. Freaking comical. IF the gun made such a HUGE difference everyone in IDPA would be using 2011s in that accuracy is KING in IDPA. How does needing to be more accurate, and smaller mags make a difference in the least bit? It doesn't but in your mind somehow it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: Optic and High Capacity mag Divisions will lead the way. Its obvious that is what the market is dictating. "The market" does not dictate the rules. It's exactly that kind of thinking that turned the entire game into an arm's race where it no longer cares about the low capacity divisions. That is also the same thinking you see above where people say that the game no longer cares about rewarding power, which has been one of the three principles of practical shooting since the beginning. It's going to be awfully hard to put the horse back in the barn, but this game has lost its way unless it does. The gun companies cannot be dictating the rule changes. For decades USPSA avoided arms races by not changing the rules like this, for good reason. I can't imagine what they were thinking going back on that. Maybe they just couldn't picture what allowing optics outside of Open and rifles to show up would do and now it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: That is an opinion you are entitled to but few agree with. 40 is dying and lets be honest, not many can afford Open. People are gong to want to shoot with optics without having to shoot open. Major PF in general seems to be loosing steam. While I do not like the idea of that its a fact. We have few Open and Limited shooters it seems to me. Especially when it comes comparing those numbers to CO. I get what you are saying about courses of fire, but to me that is more of a MD thing than a division thing. If you have good MDs this does not happen. What a joke! Not many can "afford" open, so let's create TWO welfare open divisions because one isn't enough. Unbelievable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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