3-Gun Recession?

[pskys2]

Multi-Gun is definitely time/money/effort intensive.  It may have reached a saturation point.  

It may level off, or may shrink more.  But with the economy booming and similar factors it may be that it is harder to break free for a whole day for a multi-gun match, around here it is 6+hours.  Whereas a typical USPSA match is usually 4- 5 hours.  With family and work that extra 2+ hours on a non-work day can be a factor.

I just started last year off and on.  One reason why I don't go more than a couple of times a year is the time factor.  And there's just not much that can be done about it.

[MemphisMechanic]

On 11/2/2019 at 10:51 PM, louu said:

I'm so tired of the complaining about SG loading. 3 gun is about being able to handle 3 different kinds of guns in all aspects.

This.

 

The “loading” portion of shotgun never dissuaded me from shooting 3 Gun.

 

The need for  ma shotgun at all? That was why I never participated. There’s no way I’m putting over $1,000 into buying and setting up a 12-gauge. Zero desire to spend money there. 

 

The primary thing 3-gun offered that I wanted? To learn to effectively run and gun with an AR-style rifle. To be as proficient with a long gun as I am with a handgun.

 

Then USPSA created PCC.

 

PCC offers that opportunity in a match which has 10-45 second stage times, much faster reset times between shooters... and I don’t have to be out there all day to shoot 4 or 5 stages? Sold!

 

I never got around to shooting 3-gun, and now I never will.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[Steve RA]

Back when I started shooting USPSA (1986) a while after that three gun started popping up.  Originally you only ran one gun at a time, which seemed like a better idea than using all three on a stage.  Somewhere along the line that died off and the three guns per stage started up.  I liked the one gun per stage idea much better.

[RJH]

2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

This.

 

The “loading” portion of shotgun never dissuaded me from shooting 3 Gun.

 

The need for  ma shotgun at all? That was why I never participated. There’s no way I’m putting over $1,000 into buying and setting up a 12-gauge. Zero desire to spend money there. 

 

The primary thing 3-gun offered that I wanted? To learn to effectively run and gun with an AR-style rifle. To be as proficient with a long gun as I am with a handgun.

 

Then USPSA created PCC.

 

PCC offers that opportunity in a match which has 10-45 second stage times, much faster reset times between shooters... and I don’t have to be out there all day to shoot 4 or 5 stages? Sold!

 

I never got around to shooting 3-gun, and now I never will.

 

 

You know as I think about it, this may be a bigger factor than i would have originally figured

[timawa]

Travel...

there used to be a good multigun match 20mins away from me then they quit. Closest now is 2hrs away.

[Bryan 45]

Most 3 gun competitors have attention deficit disorder, which is why we don't really care for USPSA.

 

3 Gun exploded in popularity about 7 years ago.  These hearty folks have been shooting as many matches as possible for the past several years.

 

Squirrel.

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

52 minutes ago, Bryan 45 said:

Most 3 gun competitors have attention deficit disorder, which is why we don't really care for USPSA.

Interesting angle I hadn’t considered:

 

Everyone who has gotten really good at USPSA has gotten laser-focused on one division and practiced hard at that one thing for years with minimal equipment changes.

 

No room for squirrels. Gotta go dryfire.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

You know as I think about it, this may be a bigger factor than i would have originally figured

Really?

 

A lot of shooters I know are rather cheap. A single $3,500 doublestack 2011 in .40 or one Open gun was the limit of what they were willing to pay for.

 

Now you want them to buy multiple $2,000 (including upgrades, ammo pouches, mags, sights, etc) weapons to shoot a single match with?

 

*AND* have three times the gunsmithing headaches keeping all those guns running flawlessly?

 

No thanks man. I’m good with a one-gun match.

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Really?

 

A lot of shooters I know are rather cheap. A single $3,500 doublestack 2011 in .40 or one Open gun was the limit of what they were willing to pay for.

 

Now you want them to buy multiple $2,000 (including upgrades, ammo pouches, mags, sights, etc) weapons to shoot a single match with?

 

*AND* have three times the gunsmithing headaches keeping all those guns running flawlessly?

 

No thanks man. I’m good with a one-gun match.

I meant that pcc may be sucking new and non dedicated 3gunners away from 3 gun and keeping them in uspsa. They can get their longgun fix without the all day affair and grind that 3gun is. While most people are cheap, we all tend to find money for our hobbies, just let the kids eat rice and beans or something 

[Zincwarrior]

30 minutes ago, RJH said:

I meant that pcc may be sucking new and non dedicated 3gunners away from 3 gun and keeping them in uspsa. They can get their longgun fix without the all day affair and grind that 3gun is. While most people are cheap, we all tend to find money for our hobbies, just let the kids eat rice and beans or something 

Also, one can get a half decent PCC for $500 a couple of mags and they are good to go if they just want weekend fun.

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, Steve RA said:

  I liked the one gun per stage idea much better.

 

Right.  That too.   Dropping a $2,000 SG or $3,000 rifle anywhere

isn't for me.

 

And, Memphis said the idea of spending $ 10,000 for three custom guns

is a bit much - I couldn't believe I actually spent $2,700 for a TruBor     

[Blockader]

Well, I didn't intend to start a "poop on 3-gun and their stupid shotguns" thread, but apparently that is the only kind of thread we can have. 

 

I think we all realize we could ditch the shotgun and have 2-gun only matches, but then that wouldn't be THREE gun would it? 

 

Still, I think there are useful insights and ideas here, including the perspective from some actual 3-gunners that the shotgun did get out of hand for awhile. Most matches have dialed it back I believe.

 

I agree PCC is pulling a few people away. I don't really buy the expense argument for why former 3-gunners aren't showing up as much, since ammo is much cheaper now. But if those who have burned out aren't being replaced by new shooters due to higher expense compared to other shooting sports than I do see that. 

 

Personally, I am fine with having 2-gun divisions withing 3-gun matches where 2-gunners just don't shoot shotgun only targets. As long as there's no overall scores posted, like with UML. I think UML is great and if it could expand a little faster it would help the sport a lot. 

 

If we could find a new way to reach the visibility that 3GN had, who knows what could happen. 

 

 

 

 

[Blockader]

22 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Right.  That too.   Dropping a $2,000 SG or $3,000 rifle anywhere

isn't for me.

 

And, Memphis said the idea of spending $ 10,000 for three custom guns

is a bit much - I couldn't believe I actually spent $2,700 for a TruBor     

I have less in my 3 guns combined than I see many USPSA shooters spend on a single open or limited 2011, and my setup does not hold me back. Obviously there are people with 10k in their setup but that is hardly required!

[Nolan]

1 hour ago, Blockader said:

I have less in my 3 guns combined than I see many USPSA shooters spend on a single open or limited 2011, and my setup does not hold me back. Obviously there are people with 10k in their setup but that is hardly required!

 

LOL! I wish I only had 10K in my Tac Optics 3 gun gear and now I'm getting the itch to try Open in 3 Gun.

 

Nolan

[StealthyBlagga]

On 11/3/2019 at 5:48 PM, farinx said:

Would you mind posting a few tips that you think help the matches flow so well? 

 

It's all about the up-front match design - once the first shot is fired, the die is cast:

• Design and build the match in advance using a dedicated crew - don't ask the shooters to setup or their asses will be dragging before their first stage. We setup the afternoon of the previous day. If you can partner with another match before or after, you can greatly reduce everyone's workload.
• Limit the number of stages, but make them really interesting. If your paradigm is 6-8 stages, you are going to be phoning-in at least a couple of those designs, everyone can expect to be there all day, and the number of shooters you can push through will be limited. At the end of that day, everyone will be dead on their feet and not looking forward to the next match. Sometimes less is more - our monthly is a 4-stage affair, but our goal is for all four of those stages to be great and for folks to be counting the days to the next month.
• Accept that EVERY stage does not have to involve all three guns (or even a gun transition). Making ready with 2 or 3 guns and then clearing them afterwards absolutely kills the schedule. Typically only one or two stages at our monthly matches will have a gun transition (the others will be one-gun stages). If we have a 3-gun stage, we follow it with a quicker stage so any delay is absorbed in the total match schedule. We also preload shotguns to save time.
• Use self-resetting targets as much as possible. Unlike USPSA, outlaw MDs can use whatever targets we want. Ringing steel is a staple - we hang them on firehose or rebar stands and they work awesome. Engaging the self-resetters from multiple locations lets you create an enjoyable shooting challenge without a lot of reset work.
• Limit the round count - think quality over quantity. Sometimes the temptation is to jazz-up boring stage designs with uber-high round counts. Higher round counts mean more time shooting, more time resetting and more money spent on ammo, but seldom mean more fun.
• Squad sizes need to be manageable. Bigger squads mean too much standing around, smaller squads mean not enough resetters. We settle on 4 x 13 person squads for our monthly multigun matches, and we run 2 relays (7:00am-10:30am and then 10:30am-2:00pm) for a total of 104 shooters. Each shooter is in and out inside 4 hours.
• Populate each squad with a couple of experienced RO butt-kickers who ensure resetting is done efficiently and safely, and shared equitably. If you want a bigger/multigun stage, design it with defined shooting areas progressively further downrange from one another so guns can be cleared and targets reset behind the shooter (of course, some common sense is needed with gun clearing as regards placement and who does the clearing). 

I hope this makes sense. Feel free to post additional questions.

Edited November 5, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[farinx]

26 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

It's all about the up-front match design - once the first shot is fired, the die is cast:

• Design and build the match in advance using a dedicated crew - don't ask the shooters to setup or their asses will be dragging before their first stage. We setup the afternoon of the previous day. If you can partner with another match before or after, you can greatly reduce everyone's workload.
• Limit the number of stages, but make them really interesting. If your paradigm is 6-8 stages, you are going to be phoning-in at least a couple of those designs, everyone can expect to be there all day, and the number of shooters you can push through will be limited. At the end of that day, everyone will be dead on their feet and not looking forward to the next match. Sometimes less is more - our monthly is a 4-stage affair, but our goal is for all four of those stages to be great and for folks to be counting the days to the next month.
• Accept that EVERY stage does not have to involve all three guns (or even a gun transition). Making ready with 2 or 3 guns and then clearing them afterwards absolutely kills the schedule. Typically only one or two stages at our monthly matches will have a gun transition (the others will be one-gun stages). If we have a 3-gun stage, we follow it with a quicker stage so any delay is absorbed in the total match schedule. We also preload shotguns to save time.
• Use self-resetting targets as much as possible. Unlike USPSA, outlaw MDs can use whatever targets we want. Ringing steel is a staple - we hang them on firehose or rebar stands and they work awesome. Engaging the self-resetters from multiple locations lets you create an enjoyable shooting challenge without a lot of reset work.
• Limit the round count - think quality over quantity. Sometimes the temptation is to jazz-up boring stage designs with uber-high round counts. Higher round counts mean more time shooting, more time resetting and more money spent on ammo, but seldom mean more fun.
• Squad sizes need to be manageable. Bigger squads mean too much standing around, smaller squads mean not enough resetters. We settle on 4 x 13 person squads for our monthly multigun matches, and we run 2 relays (7:00am-10:30am and then 10:30am-2:00pm) for a total of 104 shooters. Each shooter is in and out inside 4 hours.
• Populate each squad with a couple of experienced RO butt-kickers who ensure resetting is done efficiently and safely, and shared equitably. If you want a bigger/multigun stage, design it with defined shooting areas progressively further downrange from one another so guns can be cleared and targets reset behind the shooter (of course, some common sense is needed with gun clearing as regards placement and who does the clearing). 

I hope this makes sense. Feel free to post additional questions.

Thank you for the tips. Since you’ve added the two gun division, how has the stage design changed? Do you design them as you would for 3 gun, then figure out how you’d do it with just the pistol and rifle? Or do you have to keep 2 gun and 3 gun in mind when designing stages ?

[TonytheTiger]

@StealthyBlagga all good info, thanks!

Do you normally let squad moms take point on RO duties or do you find that things move better with dedicated RO's on each stage?

[HCH]

I don’t think shotgun makes any difference. Anything you do to your shotgun for 3 gun makes it better for just about anything else. 

 

Opening a loading port makes it easier to load while hunting or clay shooting. There have been several ready-to-go shotguns listed on here lately for less than $700. A lot of folks will dump that much into a Glock and never look back. 

[HRider]

I have been following this thread and thinking on it. In my area, 2 gun has grown quite a bit in the last three years. We tried a 3 gun series three years ago and had good attendance. At the end of the year, the majority of shooters in the area over ruled the 3 gun people and voted to make the series a 2 gun. I respect their decision, but prefer to shoot 3 gun (Multigun).

  I have been around awhile, stated shooting USPSA pistol in 2002, shot my first carbine match in 2004, first Multigun match in 2008 and my first international match in 2008. I was hooked on Multigun from the first match! It is more than just about the shooting to me, it is a combination of gear management, stage planning, meeting new people (some of the nicest people I have met in the world were through 3gun), helping fellow competitors out, using the proper tool in the toolbox, etc. Match shooting is really an exercise in efficiency. I really like shooting big, natural terrain stages like you will find at Rocky Mountain, HeMan and Blue Ridge.

  One thing that I think deters people from shooting 3 gun is the shotgun. Everywhere you look, people are telling you that you "have" to buy a gun and have it built into a competition gun by whoever is the hot shotgun smith at the time. While there are great gunsmiths out there that can build a fine shotgun for you, it is not a necessity for competing, especially for a new shooter. A quality shotgun with a tube on it will serve you well and can be purchased new for less than $1k. I do wish we would go back to a maximum of 9 rounds in the gun for everything except open. As far as UML helping grow the sport, there is some validity to the standardization mindset. I have enjoyed the individual flavor of the various matches that I have had the privilege to traveling to. Sure, you need to read the rules before going, but such is the same when traveling to foreign places.

  Hurley

[HCH]

1 hour ago, HRider said:

I have been following this thread and thinking on it. In my area, 2 gun has grown quite a bit in the last three years. We tried a 3 gun series three years ago and had good attendance. At the end of the year, the majority of shooters in the area over ruled the 3 gun people and voted to make the series a 2 gun. I respect their decision, but prefer to shoot 3 gun (Multigun).

  I have been around awhile, stated shooting USPSA pistol in 2002, shot my first carbine match in 2004, first Multigun match in 2008 and my first international match in 2008. I was hooked on Multigun from the first match! It is more than just about the shooting to me, it is a combination of gear management, stage planning, meeting new people (some of the nicest people I have met in the world were through 3gun), helping fellow competitors out, using the proper tool in the toolbox, etc. Match shooting is really an exercise in efficiency. I really like shooting big, natural terrain stages like you will find at Rocky Mountain, HeMan and Blue Ridge.

  One thing that I think deters people from shooting 3 gun is the shotgun. Everywhere you look, people are telling you that you "have" to buy a gun and have it built into a competition gun by whoever is the hot shotgun smith at the time. While there are great gunsmiths out there that can build a fine shotgun for you, it is not a necessity for competing, especially for a new shooter. A quality shotgun with a tube on it will serve you well and can be purchased new for less than $1k. I do wish we would go back to a maximum of 9 rounds in the gun for everything except open. As far as UML helping grow the sport, there is some validity to the standardization mindset. I have enjoyed the individual flavor of the various matches that I have had the privilege to traveling to. Sure, you need to read the rules before going, but such is the same when traveling to foreign places.

  Hurley

 

Maybe this mindset comes from being around the 3 gun game for so long, but I’ll say this: I used a Winchester 1300 with a Choate tube for the first couple years in 3 gun. Then I got a 1100, also with a Choate tube for a few years. Got tired of fighting with the 1100 and bought a 870. Then decided an automatic would be better, so I bought a 930 Flannigan (this was when the 930 was the gun to have on a budget). I ran it, with a little bit of port work for about 6 years. I came across a local deal last year  on a M2 set up for open and decided Open wasn’t for me. I swapped it for a M1 worked over by Benny Hill. Then I decided 3 gun was too much work, sold the Benelli, and bought...... a Winchester 1300 and a Choate tube, as Heavy is what I decided to shoot. 

 

My point is, a $50 mag tube is the only thing most folks need to get in the game with their current shotgun, but the internet and local shooters make the shotgun the be-all-end-all of the 3 gun game. 

[mike4045]

The 12 to 14 hour day to shoot a 5 stage match pretty much killed it for me. I have gotten burned from about a 10 yr run in 3 gun. Way too much gear to deal with. If it's natural terrain I can usually work out of my jeep. 

 

I have high quality pistol matches closer and 2 per weekend to choose from. There is a new club starting closer to me that I plan to check out. Depending on the range setup I hope to shoot it monthly.

[elguapo]

Reasons why I have zero interest in 3 gun

1. A multitude of rule sets + outlaw.  If I had no other objections, this one is enough to ever keep me from trying it.
2. Shotgun.  I have no practical use for a shotgun tailored to 3 gun.  Not gonna run out and buy all the stuff that needs to go with it either
3. Time.  USPSA pushes up to my redline of how much waiting vs shooting I do and how long does the match take overall.  3 gun will not be better and will likely be worse.  Edit: I just saw a post mentioning 12  - 14 hour match days.  LOL forget it.
4. All the stuff one has to take to keep 3 guns running at a match.  As time goes on I gravitate to shooting sports that minimize that aspect.

Just find nothing appealing about any of this

Edited November 5, 2019 by elguapo

[farinx]

3 hours ago, elguapo said:

Reasons why I have zero interest in 3 gun

1. A multitude of rule sets + outlaw.  If I had no other objections, this one is enough to ever keep me from trying it.
2. Shotgun.  I have no practical use for a shotgun tailored to 3 gun.  Not gonna run out and buy all the stuff that needs to go with it either
3. Time.  USPSA pushes up to my redline of how much waiting vs shooting I do and how long does the match take overall.  3 gun will not be better and will likely be worse.  Edit: I just saw a post mentioning 12  - 14 hour match days.  LOL forget it.
4. All the stuff one has to take to keep 3 guns running at a match.  As time goes on I gravitate to shooting sports that minimize that aspect.

Just find nothing appealing about any of this

1) There is some variation in the rule sets but they really aren't all that different

 

2) I felt the same way about the shotgun until I tried it - now I love it

 

3)  I've never had a 12-14 hour day shooting 3 gun or anything even close to that. I think those are incredibly rare.  I get way more frustrated with all the time wasted with re-shoots, arguing and whining at USPSA matches than I ever do at 3 gun.

 

4) Maybe I'm lucky but I can get away with very little maintenance on all of my guns.  All I do is add lube occasionally and clean the mags when they're dirty (pistol mags more so than rifle mags)

[elguapo]

OP wanted to know why it isn't growing.  So I said my piece as someone who's thought about it and decided to not even start.

[rr4406pak]

Loved 3 gun.

It used to just be a niche sport.

Then 3 Gun got organized. The explosion was 3 Gun Nation TV. (How great was that seeing competitive shooting on TV every week?)

The show and the pro series made 3 Gun wildly popular and big matches were selling out in minutes.

NBC Sports covering 3 Gun really legitimized it. Advertisers were jumping on board. Then Newtown happened. NBC dropped it shortly thereafter.

The FNH match at Peacemaker folded (loved that match) as well as other big matches and it's been downhill ever since.

It's headed back to where it started, being a niche sport.

 

It would be interesting to see where 3 Gun would be today if Newtown never happened.