3-Gun Recession?

[Dan Sierpina]

33 minutes ago, kellyn said:

I understand that.  I like the classic target for the shooting challenge but I agree as to its PC qualities.  That being said many (most?) IPSC countries are stuck with such target presentations.

It's a bit annoying that the newer target is the "classic" where the older is not. 

 

[teddym90]

On 11/4/2019 at 6:55 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

 

It's all about the up-front match design - once the first shot is fired, the die is cast:

• Design and build the match in advance using a dedicated crew - don't ask the shooters to setup or their asses will be dragging before their first stage. We setup the afternoon of the previous day. If you can partner with another match before or after, you can greatly reduce everyone's workload.
• Limit the number of stages, but make them really interesting. If your paradigm is 6-8 stages, you are going to be phoning-in at least a couple of those designs, everyone can expect to be there all day, and the number of shooters you can push through will be limited. At the end of that day, everyone will be dead on their feet and not looking forward to the next match. Sometimes less is more - our monthly is a 4-stage affair, but our goal is for all four of those stages to be great and for folks to be counting the days to the next month.
• Accept that EVERY stage does not have to involve all three guns (or even a gun transition). Making ready with 2 or 3 guns and then clearing them afterwards absolutely kills the schedule. Typically only one or two stages at our monthly matches will have a gun transition (the others will be one-gun stages). If we have a 3-gun stage, we follow it with a quicker stage so any delay is absorbed in the total match schedule. We also preload shotguns to save time.
• Use self-resetting targets as much as possible. Unlike USPSA, outlaw MDs can use whatever targets we want. Ringing steel is a staple - we hang them on firehose or rebar stands and they work awesome. Engaging the self-resetters from multiple locations lets you create an enjoyable shooting challenge without a lot of reset work.
• Limit the round count - think quality over quantity. Sometimes the temptation is to jazz-up boring stage designs with uber-high round counts. Higher round counts mean more time shooting, more time resetting and more money spent on ammo, but seldom mean more fun.
• Squad sizes need to be manageable. Bigger squads mean too much standing around, smaller squads mean not enough resetters. We settle on 4 x 13 person squads for our monthly multigun matches, and we run 2 relays (7:00am-10:30am and then 10:30am-2:00pm) for a total of 104 shooters. Each shooter is in and out inside 4 hours.
• Populate each squad with a couple of experienced RO butt-kickers who ensure resetting is done efficiently and safely, and shared equitably. If you want a bigger/multigun stage, design it with defined shooting areas progressively further downrange from one another so guns can be cleared and targets reset behind the shooter (of course, some common sense is needed with gun clearing as regards placement and who does the clearing). 

I hope this makes sense. Feel free to post additional questions.

 

Love this post!  This has been my methodology the past few years and our attendance has gone up every year!  It's tough to get a group of faithful RO's but our club has a great backbone of dedicated folks supporting the shooting sports events we run.  Adding UML this past season really spiced things up in a positive way as I've never had my matches run so fast and had so many competitors tell me how much fun they had as when I adopted this new mindset.  

 

At the major match level I think there's such a thing as too many big matches.  We're hitting up many of the same key sponsors and people have so many options to shoot a "major" match that they're less enticed to travel across the country.  

 

I also wonder if the loss of having the old 3GN pro series on TV generating excitement has impacted the sport.  I know there are plenty of ways to watch videos but to me it just doesn't feel the same as the excitement I had watching all the pros going head-to-head under the lights.  Has anyone else observed folks feeling this way? 

[teddym90]

Two other thoughts that I'd like to test out with the group of folks that have actually been shooting 3-gun for several years. 

 

First, I'd like to be clear, I absolutely love the comradery in 3-gun and IMHO it is often better than other options out there.  However, this thread is about trying to figure out why there's a decline so I want to test the waters and see what folks think.

 

Has anyone noticed an uptick in folks that have taken gaming stages and arguing with RO's to a whole new level?  I've experienced a bit of a new mindset this year of folks that are pushing to be the next top gun... trying to establish a social media footprint... trying to get a jersey... etc. and in the meantime a little less fun is being had between that crowd and the folks busting their butt to work matches, do the setup, run the timer and take scores. 

 

Another thought that I've had relates to the true struggle in our sport to get enough people to support your events and make them viable.  Now add on top of that the folks that come late, don't help much, argue more and leave early while the rest bust their hump for the match.   

 

Has anyone noticed a shift in the crowd of shooters where either of these things are becoming prevalent?  If so, I wonder if this is also a cause for driving down popularity where the good folks get burned out while the remaining crowd is taking an approach like this.

[perttime]

7 hours ago, kellyn said:

I understand that.  I like the classic target for the shooting challenge but I agree as to its PC qualities.  That being said many (most?) IPSC countries are stuck with such target presentations.

I like the IPSC target. Here, in gun-controlled Finland, IDPA is using IDPA targets - and the military reservists' sorta-3-gun is using USPSA style targets with no issues.

[Stlhead]

I don’t come around here much anymore.  The atmosphere of the forum, much like the sport (3 gun) has just gone in a different direction. I do peek at the topics every few months and noticed this one that struck me as the first one I have noticed worth commenting on in a while.  Back in the day I started with USPSA, then got into 3 gun and abandoned USPSA for anything other than pistol practice for 3 gun, I have shot a few matches over the years, I have Set stages, I have served as an RO, I have done set up, tear down, shot tactical rifle matches (pre-PRS), shot PRS, watched the rise of 3 gun nation, DQed at a major match, and DQed others.  The zenith of 3 gun was right after 3 gun nation got started, from there it started a slow but steady decline that bottomed out last season. 

 

I feel there are many reasons for the decline, but here are what I see as the big 3.  The stages at many matches where just not as much fun to shoot, 3 gun is expensive, not just in money, but more importantly time, lastly the bulk of the participants are getting old and broke Dick.  

 

Fortunatley there are still a few guys left willing to put on a good match for me to limp around at.  USPSA guys will always find fault with 3 gun, as far as they are concerned all shooting sports worship at the feet of the USPSA, and some will blame the shotgun, but shotgun is only a barrier to those that are not in the sport already, the decline has to come from those that where already in the sport, not just a lack of new shooters.

[TonytheTiger]

9 hours ago, Stlhead said:

 The atmosphere of the forum, much like the sport (3 gun) has just gone in a different direction.

 

 The stages at many matches where just not as much fun to shoot, 

Care to further expound on these points?

[StealthyBlagga]

11 hours ago, Stlhead said:

... The zenith of 3 gun was right after 3 gun nation got started, from there it started a slow but steady decline that bottomed out last season. 

 

...lastly the bulk of the participants are getting old and broke Dick.  

 

... shotgun is only a barrier to those that are not in the sport already, the decline has to come from those that where already in the sport, not just a lack of new shooters.

 

This is the crux of the matter. TV coverage by 3GN and other shooting shows showing young athletes running-and -gunning has driven a lot of the interest during the last decade, but the backbone of the sport has been older shooters who have the disposable income needed for sustained participation. As those participants drop out due to age, health, burnout and alternate interests, the sport - like any sport - needs to replenish the ranks.

 

The PERCEPTION among a lot of younger potential new recruits is that the shotgun is an expensive, clunky, specialized and irrelevant weapon that requires an inordinate investment of $$$ and effort to master the esoteric loading aspects. A lot of us who shoot 3-gun already might take issue with that perception (see the many arguments above), but PERCEPTION IS REALITY - we, as a sport, have been unable to overcome this perception despite a lot of trying. The bulk of the growth I have seen at my matches is coming from 2-gunners. Maybe some will see the light and get into shotgun later in their careers, or maybe not - I am just fine with it either way.

[RJH]

Well, looks like I might shoot my first 3-gun match in quite a while again. Why am I doing it? mainly because I I'm getting an AK for the first time and want to try it at a match. I might even buy an old-school straight-up Riot shotgun as well, not sure on that one yet though. So getting an AK is what it took to get me back to being interested in 3 gun, I will however pick my matches carefully so that I will have a chance at hitting all the steel. In other words I'm probably not going to do many matches that have much in the way of tiny Steel at 150 yards or any steel at 500 or so. I know I will have basically zero chance of winning with this setup, but getting back to the roots of 3 gun I think will be a lot of fun. Idk how long it will keep me interested,  but it is a start

[TonytheTiger]

Hell if all I gotta do is loan out AK's to bring 3 gun back I'm game.

[RJH]

27 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Hell if all I gotta do is loan out AK's to bring 3 gun back I'm game.

 

 

Haha, right   

 

I doubt i do a bunch of it again, as the match that has stages more to my liking is about 2.5 hours away.  It kinda sucks because there is a match 20 minutes away with the jumbo stages that i don't care fore and I can drive the 5 hour round trip and be home earlier than shooting at the closer match (maybe a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one).  But, even with an AK i probably won't time out on any stages at the match 2.5 hours away.    The close match is one of those that i mentioned earlier that even very good shooters will time out or at least just leave some targets and accept the penalties so they don't time out and still have  penalties.  I am generally a midish pack 3 gunner probably something like a low B class shooter if 3 gun had classes, and shooting an iron sight AK, I would probably time out at pretty much every stage requiring a rifle here

[actionshooter]

On 11/18/2019 at 9:52 PM, Stlhead said:

I don’t come around here much anymore.  The atmosphere of the forum, much like the sport (3 gun) has just gone in a different direction. I do peek at the topics every few months and noticed this one that struck me as the first one I have noticed worth commenting on in a while.  Back in the day I started with USPSA, then got into 3 gun and abandoned USPSA for anything other than pistol practice for 3 gun, I have shot a few matches over the years, I have Set stages, I have served as an RO, I have done set up, tear down, shot tactical rifle matches (pre-PRS), shot PRS, watched the rise of 3 gun nation, DQed at a major match, and DQed others.  The zenith of 3 gun was right after 3 gun nation got started, from there it started a slow but steady decline that bottomed out last season. 

 

I feel there are many reasons for the decline, but here are what I see as the big 3.  The stages at many matches where just not as much fun to shoot, 3 gun is expensive, not just in money, but more importantly time, lastly the bulk of the participants are getting old and broke Dick.  

 

Fortunatley there are still a few guys left willing to put on a good match for me to limp around at.  USPSA guys will always find fault with 3 gun, as far as they are concerned all shooting sports worship at the feet of the USPSA, and some will blame the shotgun, but shotgun is only a barrier to those that are not in the sport already, the decline has to come from those that where already in the sport, not just a lack of new shooters.

  There is a lot of truth in this...

 

I think the decline can be attributed to almost everything discussed here... locally we have lost shooters to PRS, in reality at least 10, probably more.  I think there is truth that the shotgun does scare new shooters and some others use it as an excuse b/c they either don't like it or they suck at it.

  2 gun is easier to get into because everyone has an AR and most have shot some USPSA or that style of pistol match, so its an easy entry.

There have been an abundance of bad stages and matches, its hard to bust on a volunteer but just throwing targets out for a huge round count with no direction isn't always fun. Cost... we all know about that, no explanation needed.

There are shooters who are moving away from the sport for various reasons and not being replaced by new shooters. 

I also believe the lack of attendance at a lot of majors (and some locals) can be directly attributed to too many matches. Yes, too many matches are a bad thing, contrary to what everyone said for years.... 

 

This all adds up to a sad time for 3gun

[RJH]

Was looking and thinking a bit about this thread and the thread about production division numbers dropping in USPSA, and it got me to wondering if maybe both things have just kinda run their course and there is no real fix for either one.  Things come and go, and some hold on longer than others.  Single Stack was bigger than it is now for a few years in USPSA but has died off to almost nothing now, it was never as big as production, but still shows how things ebb and flow.  Take handgun silhouettes, they were the thing to do for years, now finding a match is hard to do.  Field archery was once huge across the nation, it is almost unheard of now.  There will probably always be 3 gun matches, but getting them to where they used to be may not , and I think probably will not, ever happen

[TonytheTiger]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 There will probably always be 3 gun matches, but getting them to where they used to be may not , and I think probably will not, ever happen

I reject your logic! Long live 3 gun!

 

You might be right though.

[Blockader]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

 There will probably always be 3 gun matches, but getting them to where they used to be may not , and I think probably will not, ever happen

 

Boooooooo. Hisssssssss. Blaaaassssphemy. 

[mpeltier]

On 11/19/2019 at 12:52 AM, Stlhead said:

I don’t come around here much anymore.  The atmosphere of the forum, much like the sport (3 gun) has just gone in a different direction. I do peek at the topics every few months and noticed this one that struck me as the first one I have noticed worth commenting on in a while.  Back in the day I started with USPSA, then got into 3 gun and abandoned USPSA for anything other than pistol practice for 3 gun, I have shot a few matches over the years, I have Set stages, I have served as an RO, I have done set up, tear down, shot tactical rifle matches (pre-PRS), shot PRS, watched the rise of 3 gun nation, DQed at a major match, and DQed others.  The zenith of 3 gun was right after 3 gun nation got started, from there it started a slow but steady decline that bottomed out last season. 

 

I feel there are many reasons for the decline, but here are what I see as the big 3.  The stages at many matches where just not as much fun to shoot, 3 gun is expensive, not just in money, but more importantly time, lastly the bulk of the participants are getting old and broke Dick.  

 

Fortunatley there are still a few guys left willing to put on a good match for me to limp around at.  USPSA guys will always find fault with 3 gun, as far as they are concerned all shooting sports worship at the feet of the USPSA, and some will blame the shotgun, but shotgun is only a barrier to those that are not in the sport already, the decline has to come from those that where already in the sport, not just a lack of new shooters.

 

Well, I read this thread with much interest. I wasn't going to respond as I thought I might be alone in my feelings. With the exception of PRS, I could have written your first paragraph. Lol

 

I agree with two of your three reasons. However at 56 I don't consider myself old nor is anything.....ahem, broke. Still hold my own pretty darn good against most guys half my age.

 

Things started to get, crowded if you will, about 8 years ago. I don't like crowds so much. Big matches filling up in seconds, then the prices of entry going up, and the guys who say "We design stages to level the playing field", whatever that means. I don't really even follow the big matches anymore.

[SinistralRifleman]

Hey everyone.  It's almost as if what I said back in 2011 is even more true today:
https://sinistralrifleman.com/2011/04/27/the-case-for-riflepistol-matches/

For people who don't know me I actively shot 3-Gun from 2001-2017.  My video coverage of 3 Gun events in the 2000s has actively been credited by dozens of 3-gunners as the reason they got into the sport.  Since 2-Gun has been an option at all the local Phoenix, AZ club matches I have shot it almost exclusively along with our rifle only match, and the two monthly 2-gun specific matches.  When I do pick up a shotgun every 6-12 months I don't feel like I've lost anything. 

I've watched the market shift in what people want to shoot as the gun culture has changed with influences from returning veterans, shift in weapon focus in games and movies, shift in the tactical training market as more and more bad guys wear body armor.  The young people that have grown up over the past 2 decades do not see shotguns with the same love or enthusiasm as previous generations of gun owners as a result.  In the past 4 years InRange TV has had a distinct impact on the type of events new shooters, especially younger ones, want to compete in.

While you're worrying about filling matches.  2-gun Events like InRange's -Brutality events and The Tactical Games are filling up with people who don't want to shoot 3-Gun.  They can use their self-defense/SHTF gear in a fun, challenging venue.  Meanwhile the type of shotgun used for 3-Gun is too long to be practical for home defense in most cases, and the shell caddies are only useful for this specific sport.  The people willing to buy equipment that is only useful in a sporting context are the minority.  The less martially applicable the equipment and shooting style is, the less interesting it is to most potential match participants.

People are begging us to help run more hardcore 2-gun events around the country.  Something that I am working with InRange on expanding in 2020 and even more in 2021
 

On 11/2/2019 at 8:20 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

Over the last couple of years, since we created 2-Gun versions of our regular 3-Gun divisions, we have grown our monthly multigun match participation steadily to the point where the matches sell out in minutes. Typical participation is 2/3 3-Gun and 1/3 2-Gun. Some 2-Gun participation has certainly been cannibalization of existing 3-Gun shooters, but a lot has been new shooters or returning shooters who tired of the shotgun loading game. Whether you want to believe it or not, shotgun loading IS the number one barrier to new shooter entry... a barrier easily overcome by offering 2-Gun as an option.

I appreciate that you did this for the Rio Salado club matches.  Way more fun and less hassle.
 

[DukeEB]

I have thought about 3 gun, but i have zero interest in shotgun.  i didn't grow up with shotguns, and I don't see a real world application where you are carrying 3 guns.  I could definitely get into 2 gun matches, it makes more sense to me.

[Darqusoull13]

@SinistralRifleman Spot on on your assessment of current trends. I find myself in the group you described being tired of the shotgun (plus various types of ammo, caddies and accessories) and very much preferring to shoot 1 or 2 gun matches. As a side note, your video of the Best RO Stage Brief Ever was definitely a big reason I got into 3 gun. 

[MILDOTS]

 I live in California, there are no local matches so it’s hard to compete. I’m 74 so as the matches turned in a young mans sport. A friend got into CASA it’s a little more my speed. But I keep reading on their forum how cowboy shooting is declining and I believe it is. At least multi-gun attracts a younger group of people. The problem is the money it takes to get into and participate in The the sport. I started when I was 50, young enough to compete(not very well). But I loved it, the challenge of mastering all 3 guns and keeping them running was part of it. I’m weird shotgun was my favorite next to the rifle so I don’t get the shotgun problem but I’m old so......

[perttime]

^ Cowboy Action Shooting is also a multigun sport. I think you need 4 to do it....

[MILDOTS]

Yes 2 pistols, rifle and a shotgun A totally different game just starting..And an alias 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, MILDOTS said:

Yes 2 pistols, rifle and a shotgun A totally different game just starting..And an alias 

Thought about shooting cas a few times, but the dress up and made up names were too much for me 

[DD78]

I started competing in various action shooting sports 4 years ago. The very first competitive match I shot was 3 gun, and the match sold out.

I have not really seen much of a downturn in the numbers of people shooting 3 gun, but I do see a different crowd from the regulars I shot with two years ago. At least half of the shooters at the local matches seem to be new shooters.

3 gun is definitely not a cheap sport by any means, but it’s one that most gun owners likely already have the biggest investment (the guns) chilling in their safes. Aside from that, the equipment that’s mandatory to have is shell caddies for the shotgun. For $150, you’ll have more than enough to get you through a match. It’s only when you want to start buying the Gucci gear that it begins getting expensive. I think people eventually begin spending money on the higher quality gear, ammo, etc and begin seeing that perhaps they can’t afford to spend that much due to kids and whatnot.

I noticed a bunch of people have complained about loading shotgun. I learned how to quadload in literally a half hour. I never practice loading the shotgun until typically the night before a match. I may load up my caddies twice, do quadloads, and then put the shotgun in the case. This takes me 15 min. The folks complaining about shotgun likely don’t bother practicing. My buddy who doesn’t shoot competitively remarked how quadloading looked hard. I had him loading quads in 10 min.

But I digress, especially since the OP specifically said that this is not a shotgun thread lol.

I think nationally interest has been waning since 3 gun nation took a dump a couple years back. We had three local clubs that were 3GN clubs, and one by one they went to outlaw or UML.

I probably shoot more USPSA than 3 gun but that’s only because there are more matches locally than 3 gun.

I’ve seen some folks complain about difficult targets, or stages, but that and the shotgun loading just sound like excuses. If a target is too difficult, almost no one will successfully neutralize it so it really doesn’t make much of a difference aside from making sure you don’t get stuck on that target dumping lead into a berm trying to neutralize it.

Two things I believe will cause 3 gun to be more we’ll attended in areas where it has been declining. There are rumors that 3GN May be coming back under new leadership/ownership. The one thing I believe that doesn’t make 3 gun as attractive to some as USPSA is that match performance is the only way to measure yourself against other shooters. 3GN had that with their classification system. I think people just want fan clubs for having become classified as “Pro shooters” or “GM’s or Masters” in USPSA. One of my buddies was classified way higher than me in 3GN and I was crushing him at matches my first year shooting even though he’d been shooting 5 years longer.

The other thing I think will drum up participation is wait for a democrat to become president. We have a bad habit of taking things for granted because we have a republican president.

I have no plans on slowing down shooting 3 gun and despite living near Chicago, there are enough matches within an hour to hour and a half drive to let me shoot 3 gun monthly during the summer. Perhaps this area has more attendance because wages are generally higher here than smaller cities? Who knows? I just know that I don’t see less participation, I see new faces I’ve never seen before.

For the TLDR crowd:

1. Costs of shooting matches

2. Changes in family responsibilities

3. No national uniform rule set or organization like USPSA

4. Complacency regarding gun control

[Rob72]

On 11/13/2019 at 3:01 PM, kurtm said:

IPSC rifle will never catch on in the U.S. as it is way too accuracy driven and difficult for most. Secondly we as a country just can't seem to be able to score paper targets and have knock down steel at extended ranges without major back ups.....although they do it all the time "over there".

Secondly the joy of "shotgun" started its demize in 3-gun about the time we got away from the idea of testing it's social use! It has morphed into "Tactical bird and rabbit hunting" or "Combat 5 stand" when we started using bird shot instead of buckshot, and started changing targets to pipes, clays, tiny plates etc, and growing round count to idiotic levels which emphasized loading it began to drag it all down.

The 3-gun recession was caused by trying to make it T.V. exciting and trying to make it all a drag race, instead of testing various aspects of the use of 3-guns in the social/martial setting.

The most exciting matches I've seen were the Coors 3 gun, in rural Colorado, 30 some years ago.

 

The most fun I've ever had with 3 guns was not a match, it was running the tire-wall shoot house with the local sheriffs, 20 some years ago.  By the time I had the money to "play", nothing I saw was as practical (fun) as what I'd done with guys using "real" guns.

 

I've dabble in local pistol and rifle matches over the years, never 3 gun, for this reason.  

 

Is it an excuse? Maybe.  But I know that for $350, I can take a class from reputable trainers who will work me with my actual carry/home gear.  It's a whole lot more like what I saw that turned me onto shooting.  YMMV, IMO, etc..

[TonytheTiger]

@DD78 You gonna take over at ASC and throw some badass 3 gun matches?