3-Gun Recession?

[DD78]

[mention=69764]DD78[/mention] You gonna take over at ASC and throw some badass 3 gun matches?

Is it in need of taking over? I’ve heard rumors but nothing official yet.

[Intheshaw1]

So my perspective is as a new 3 Gunner who started this year and shot 3 local matches. I've shot local pistol leagues and some USPSA off and on for 3-4 years and got into 3 gun based on some urging for some of the people I shoot pistol league with. 

 

For the first match, my goal was to spend as little as possible to see if I liked it and I took my AR I already had, my Glock setup from pistol league and my Benelli Nova duck gun. I put an AR mag in my back pocket and shotgun shells in an old molle pouch attached to my gun belt. I was told by many ahead of the match that they would bring gear that I could borrow but still wanted to bring my own stuff just in case.

 

At the first match, I ended up borrowing a taccom shell carrier and a m3k to use. Had a blast and got hooked and have since bought an affinity 3 and built out a 3 gun cart. But my initial out of pocket was essentially nothing as I already had all 3 guns. I was slow, clunky, made mistakes but didn't DQ and that was my sole goal for my first match, well that and having fun.

 

I think the cost argument for new shooters is a little weak because if you really want to shoot 3 gun, you can do it on a budget. I think the biggest thing that kept me from doing it for years was I didn't know anyone who did. But then our club built out new bays and started holding matches.  I think having a Facebook group or similar where you can invite new shooters as well as have older ones there that may be able to help fill in the gaps for missing gear is big. Probably the reason I went the first time because everyone was so welcoming and nearly everyone offered up gear for me to borrow or try out before I started buying stuff.

 

If we want to grow the sport, everyone needs to introduce a new shooters to 3 gun and offer up gear and mentor them. It's an intimidating thing to get into for most people but having a little push may be all they need.

[TonytheTiger]

9 hours ago, DD78 said:

 

Is it in need of taking over? I’ve heard rumors but nothing official yet.

 

Same here, just rumors.

[Blockader]

3 hours ago, Intheshaw1 said:

 

 

If we want to grow the sport, everyone needs to introduce a new shooters to 3 gun and offer up gear and mentor them. It's an intimidating thing to get into for most people but having a little push may be all they need.

 

Yes. I managed to get 4 friends into 3-Gun in 2019, 2 of whom had never shot a match of any kind before. 

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, Blockader said:

 

Yes. I managed to get 4 friends into 3-Gun in 2019, 2 of whom had never shot a match of any kind before. 

Your friends must like fun.

My friends hate fun.

[kurtm]

Hmmm maybe your friends really do like fun, that's why they are staying away from some of these lame assed matches. Or they really like fun, but maybe it's you........but I'll shoot with you anytime!

[Joe4d]

On 12/9/2019 at 10:07 PM, RJH said:

Thought about shooting cas a few times, but the dress up and made up names were too much for me 

Well folks dress up for IDPA,,,
But I think it has same problem as 3 gun... instead of different gun divisions you have to have  4 guns ,2 of which are pretty specialized. KIlled it for me..
Although it could be worse,, you could do mounted shooting, only need the 2 handguns, OR a rifle OR a shotgun,,, well that and a horse, plus $1k plus in tack,, and lets not talk about feed bill, hay, farrier, vet,,,  and unlike every other sport you cant just stick em in the safe or shed and spend nothing till u break em out again..

[Ming the Merciless]

I must be strange because I really like 3 Gun shotgun!  Pump Riot Gun? Yes, please!  Pike length Beretta 1301? I have 2, thank you!  Box fed Turkish Delight?  Yup, one of them even has some of the original parts!

 

I like Sporting Clays and I'm OK at it, but the local crowd is pretty snobbish, so I like to bring my Mossberg 500 just to piss them off.  My Citori is just barely good enough not to draw a sniff of disdain.

 

I'm not real big on Trap or Skeet, but if I think of it as aerial Steel Challenge, it's not so boring and the local group is pretty friendly, but the gun handling, yikes!  I've never been smacked in the head with a buttstock in 3 Gun by a guy walking around with his shotgun over his shoulder.

 

But only 3 Gun lets you slam targets as fast as you can pull the trigger, require mixing Buck, Bird and Slugs, play Circus games with spinning, swinging, and flying targets!  I mean, what's not to like?  Seriously! 

 

Oh, I guess spending 15 minutes, 3 times a week for a couple of weeks to learn quad loading is too hard?

[Sawdustnsteel]

im a relatively new guy and already shoot limited, CO, and Pcc.. Ive set up my AR for 3 gun.. have a benelli m2 ported and tuned.. and was around zero local 3 gun matches. sure there where bigtime matches for 3 gun.. and everyone in them was shooting open pistols and mag loaded shotguns there was not a single limited shooter in the vegas matches I saw. and really no level 1 matches to actually practice the whole thing together.

 

now that COULD be due to lack of interest. or a lack of desire to branch into ONE MORE thing. ( most the people that got me involved in shooting sports have never shot shotguns in a match)

I personally would LOVE to try it out and see how i like it and hope there are some local level matches for 3 gun in colorado this summer.

however, im not optimistic and think this benelli m2 I traded a sig 226 legion for is going to end up being a skeet and hunting gun.

[farinx]

4 hours ago, Sawdustnsteel said:

im a relatively new guy and already shoot limited, CO, and Pcc.. Ive set up my AR for 3 gun.. have a benelli m2 ported and tuned.. and was around zero local 3 gun matches. sure there where bigtime matches for 3 gun.. and everyone in them was shooting open pistols and mag loaded shotguns there was not a single limited shooter in the vegas matches I saw. and really no level 1 matches to actually practice the whole thing together.

 

now that COULD be due to lack of interest. or a lack of desire to branch into ONE MORE thing. ( most the people that got me involved in shooting sports have never shot shotguns in a match)

I personally would LOVE to try it out and see how i like it and hope there are some local level matches for 3 gun in colorado this summer.

however, im not optimistic and think this benelli m2 I traded a sig 226 legion for is going to end up being a skeet and hunting gun.

 

 

 

 

 

Where in Colorado are you?   I don't live there but I've shot the Colorado 3 gun championship in Colorado Springs and I believe they have locals there every month

 

 

https://pikespeakgunclub.org/league-scores/3-gun-events/

 

 

https://www.soco3gun.com/about.html

 

I know they have a few other clubs but I don't know the names - here is what I found from googling quickly:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/554578294747740/

 

 

 

http://www.coloradoactionshooting.com/pawnee-3-gun.html

 

 

https://www.bigben3gun.com/

 

 

 

There are some really good matches this summer in Raton, NM - a few hours south of Denver - Johnson 3-gun He-Man edition is May 16-17 and Rocky mountain edition is August 15-16

 

 

 

[Sawdustnsteel]

1 hour ago, farinx said:

 

 

Where in Colorado are you?   I don't live there but I've shot the Colorado 3 gun championship in Colorado Springs and I believe they have locals there every month

 

 

https://pikespeakgunclub.org/league-scores/3-gun-events/

 

 

https://www.soco3gun.com/about.html

 

I know they have a few other clubs but I don't know the names - here is what I found from googling quickly:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/554578294747740/

 

 

 

http://www.coloradoactionshooting.com/pawnee-3-gun.html

 

 

https://www.bigben3gun.com/

 

 

 

There are some really good matches this summer in Raton, NM - a few hours south of Denver - Johnson 3-gun He-Man edition is May 16-17 and Rocky mountain edition is August 15-16

 

 

 

yea I got a bunch bookmarked, I thought to wait for summer to check them out. rahter doubting there will be many matches with weather as it is:D

[Gene_WI]

I keep trying to like 3gun, but it just never clicks for me. What I don't like.

1) Matches take way too long. USPSA or PRS, I am done and at home by 1-2 PM. Last 3gun match I shot I left at 4 without finishing all the stages.

2) Ever changing rules sets, this is a real killer for me.

3) Trying to please too many people. PCC, .22, etc... why bother. 

4) This might sound snobby... But people that bring none functioning guns to matches need to be DQed. I don't need to waste 20-40 minutes of my life watching someone clearing malfunctions on a pump shotgun, or chasing a zero on a $20 walmart red dot.

 

[Intheshaw1]

6 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

I keep trying to like 3gun, but it just never clicks for me. What I don't like.

1) Matches take way too long. USPSA or PRS, I am done and at home by 1-2 PM. Last 3gun match I shot I left at 4 without finishing all the stages.

2) Ever changing rules sets, this is a real killer for me.

3) Trying to please too many people. PCC, .22, etc... why bother. 

4) This might sound snobby... But people that bring none functioning guns to matches need to be DQed. I don't need to waste 20-40 minutes of my life watching someone clearing malfunctions on a pump shotgun, or chasing a zero on a $20 walmart red dot.

 

What matches are you shooting?  I shoot at Schultz in Muskego and agree that they take longer but at the same time you're probably shooting longer as the stages are a little bigger and more complicated.

 

The last match I shot had the 150 yard rifle stage go to a par time as the match before had people taking a long time. This way someone isnt chasing a dot or a bad zero for too long.

[Gene_WI]

13 hours ago, Intheshaw1 said:

What matches are you shooting?  I shoot at Schultz in Muskego and agree that they take longer but at the same time you're probably shooting longer as the stages are a little bigger and more complicated.

 

The last match I shot had the 150 yard rifle stage go to a par time as the match before had people taking a long time. This way someone isnt chasing a dot or a bad zero for too long.

 

I stay local for matches. I agree with you on par times, these are a must. I think PRS deals with this issue very well by having all stages have a par time.

[mpeltier]

28 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

I stay local for matches. I agree with you on par times, these are a must. I think PRS deals with this issue very well by having all stages have a par time.

I can see the benefit to par times at a PRS match, but for all stages at a 3-gun match to have par times is, in my opinion, a matter of poor stage design and/or target choice. Too often I hear a match director or stage designer justify their use of par times, stage design, or target choice as attempting to "level the playing field". I absolutely detest that phrase as there is no such thing, and its usually uttered by some one who's not at a very competitive level and thinks that attempting tripping up the better shooters will some how get them there (usually they just frustrate the beginners and average competitors). If a par time is used, it needs to be reasonable, but often times its just an arbitrary number that does not consider the average skill level shooter. I attended a relatively new match here in Florida a few years back that had par times on every stage. They asked my opinion on it and the stage designs as I was one of the more experienced shooters in attendance. They didn't like my response and just shrugged off my suggestions. Well, more then half the shooters timed out on many stages, and there was one stage that I was the only shooter that didn't time out but only by a few seconds. I never went back to that match......even though I won it.

[davsco]

21 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

I keep trying to like 3gun, but it just never clicks for me. What I don't like.

1) Matches take way too long. USPSA or PRS, I am done and at home by 1-2 PM. Last 3gun match I shot I left at 4 without finishing all the stages.

 

well unless you're going to just do a couple of stages, 3 gun by its nature has to be longer than a uspsa match.  i'm def not going to do a 3 gun match (or any match) that isn't at least 5-6 stages.  a 6 stage uspsa match is ~180 rounds max and most of the 3 gun matches i do have 100-125+ rounds per gun, with each stage taking up more real estate than a normal uspsa stage.  i'm perfectly fine with having a longer day doing 3 gun vs uspsa.  but i agree, definitely par times, i've seen 120-180 seconds so the longer time at a match isn't due to wasted time.

[davsco]

4 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

I can see the benefit to par times at a PRS match, but for all stages at a 3-gun match to have par times is, in my opinion, a matter of poor stage design and/or target choice. 

eh it depends.  at my one local match we normally have two stages that have rifle out to 3-500 yards.  unfortunately some folks just don't have zero / dope / experience / ability  / good glass & gear and will empty two 30 round mags for 4-5 targets.  a par time just stops the misery (and ammo cost).  the rest of the stages, in bays, most don't come near the par time unless an equipment issue, where again the par time is a saving grace.

[farinx]

1 minute ago, davsco said:

eh it depends.  at my one local match we normally have two stages that have rifle out to 3-500 yards.  unfortunately some folks just don't have zero / dope / experience / ability  / good glass & gear and will empty two 30 round mags for 4-5 targets.  a par time just stops the misery (and ammo cost).  the rest of the stages, in bays, most don't come near the par time unless an equipment issue, where again the par time is a saving grace.

I agree - you've gotta keep the match moving.  If more than 10-20% of the shooters are timing out then I think that is a problem.  

[mpeltier]

5 minutes ago, davsco said:

eh it depends.  at my one local match we normally have two stages that have rifle out to 3-500 yards.  unfortunately some folks just don't have zero / dope / experience / ability  / good glass & gear and will empty two 30 round mags for 4-5 targets.  a par time just stops the misery (and ammo cost).  the rest of the stages, in bays, most don't come near the par time unless an equipment issue, where again the par time is a saving grace.

 

Yeah, that's a good example of a good use of par time. But I only said not ALL stages should need it and I also said " If a par time is used, it needs to be reasonable, but often times its just an arbitrary number that does not consider the average skill level shooter." If your going to quote me, quote it all. You loose context when you do that. 

[mpeltier]

7 minutes ago, farinx said:

I agree - you've gotta keep the match moving.  If more than 10-20% of the shooters are timing out then I think that is a problem.  

 

Exactly right, if 10-20% (or sometimes more) there's a problem with an arbitrary par time, or very poor stage design, or both.

[Gene_WI]

9 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

 

Exactly right, if 10-20% (or sometimes more) there's a problem with an arbitrary par time, or very poor stage design, or both.

 

If not par times the RO needs another mechanism to "end the misery". If targets are not being hit after 10+ shots, or it takes 10+ minutes for someone to finish a stage, there needs to be a way to end this. 

 

PRS par times are very reasonable, It is rare to see people time out, yet it keeps the match going.

 

Last 3gun match I shot, I easily spent an hour and a half watching folks trying to get their guns to run or zero.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Gene_WI

[greatlakes08]

3 gun is what got me into competition shooting and it is still my favorite shooting sport. I hated shotgun for many years and now a lot of clubs are offering a two gun option which is nice but once you have a shotgun that runs it is much more enjoyable. 

I also feel that for a time matches seemed to be heavy on shotgun stages vs rifle and pistol but now stages seem to utilize all three guns throughout the entire match at least around my area which I like.

Overall I hope 3-gun continues to thrive and any recessions end soon!

[TonytheTiger]

17 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

Last 3gun match I shot, I easily spent an hour and a half watching folks trying to get their guns to run or zero.

Where was this at? I've never seen an RO allow that sillyness. I've personally let new shooters run a couple seconds over par at small locals, but minutes over? Thats gotta log jam a match real quick.

[Gene_WI]

On 12/24/2019 at 5:53 AM, TonytheTiger said:

Where was this at? I've never seen an RO allow that sillyness. I've personally let new shooters run a couple seconds over par at small locals, but minutes over? Thats gotta log jam a match real quick.

 

There was no par time at the match. Lots of newer shooters, lots of malfunctions. Created a massive logjam and it took forever to shot the match.

[TonytheTiger]

12 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

 

There was no par time at the match. Lots of newer shooters, lots of malfunctions. Created a massive logjam and it took forever to shot the match.

If its near Madison there's a good chance I know the MD and could pass this along to help improve his match. Winnequah had par times at the last two matches this year.