3-Gun Recession?

[Gene_WI]

10 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

If its near Madison there's a good chance I know the MD and could pass this along to help improve his match. Winnequah had par times at the last two matches this year.

 

Yes the match was at WGC. The MD is a good friend of mine he knows my opinion. He instituted par times after the match I am describing

[1chota]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:46 AM, mpeltier said:

 

Exactly right, if 10-20% (or sometimes more) there's a problem with an arbitrary par time, or very poor stage design, or both.

Amen.  Some MDs who are good shooters set up stages for the better shooters and don't consider the average shooters.

I attended a match this year that the par time was 180 and on the 1st stage 60 shooters timed out.  On the second stage almost 90 shooters timed out. i did not check the other stage times as I was disappointed with those two.  But, the other stages were of similar length and challenges.  Looking back at the match the par time was too short as the allotted time per squad was 1 1/2 hours.  12 shooters times 3 minutes is only 36 minutes.  Most of the stages at that match did not have a long re-set. So............

[gerritm]

I agree. Not talking about stages at majors, but local matches.

 

We have had a couple of local matches that the MD designed all of the stages for very experienced shooters, but not the fairly newbies that were showing up. Many got disappointed because they timed out and the few experienced guys blew thru the stages. So a few each match tended to not come back because they felt the total match/stages were beyond their experience level. Yes, all need to be challenged. But if a newer shooter spends several thousand on guns, gear, ammo, match fees, & time they need to get their money's worth.

 

My point is to keep shooters coming back the stages should be designed for all levels to enjoy. If 50 or 60% are timing out maybe the stages/par times need to be tweaked. Again based on match size, time, reset, etc. Need to keep the majority interested. My thoughts and advice to the MD was if you had a super difficult stage, design the next one so all can do it. Remember it is a game and all are there to have fun. These small changes have now kept the match full & running on time.

 

gerritm

[TonytheTiger]

8 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

 

Yes the match was at WGC. The MD is a good friend of mine he knows my opinion. He instituted par times after the match I am describing

[Chills1994]

On 11/5/2019 at 2:41 PM, rr4406pak said:

Loved 3 gun.

It used to just be a niche sport.

Then 3 Gun got organized. The explosion was 3 Gun Nation TV. (How great was that seeing competitive shooting on TV every week?)

The show and the pro series made 3 Gun wildly popular and big matches were selling out in minutes.

NBC Sports covering 3 Gun really legitimized it. Advertisers were jumping on board. Then Newtown happened. NBC dropped it shortly thereafter.

The FNH match at Peacemaker folded (loved that match) as well as other big matches and it's been downhill ever since.

It's headed back to where it started, being a niche sport.

 

It would be interesting to see where 3 Gun would be today if Newtown never happened.

 

Remember the cool NBC 3GN trailer:

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Chills1994

[Blockader]

On 12/27/2019 at 2:12 PM, gerritm said:

I agree. Not talking about stages at majors, but local matches.

 

We have had a couple of local matches that the MD designed all of the stages for very experienced shooters, but not the fairly newbies that were showing up. Many got disappointed because they timed out and the few experienced guys blew thru the stages. So a few each match tended to not come back because they felt the total match/stages were beyond their experience level. Yes, all need to be challenged. But if a newer shooter spends several thousand on guns, gear, ammo, match fees, & time they need to get their money's worth.

 

My point is to keep shooters coming back the stages should be designed for all levels to enjoy. If 50 or 60% are timing out maybe the stages/par times need to be tweaked. Again based on match size, time, reset, etc. Need to keep the majority interested. My thoughts and advice to the MD was if you had a super difficult stage, design the next one so all can do it. Remember it is a game and all are there to have fun. These small changes have now kept the match full & running on time.

 

gerritm

 

For the match I design stages for, my personal philosophy is to build stages that are executable by new shooters and experienced shooters can just execute them fast. People rarely time out on the bay stages with 90 second par times. On my field course I generally design it to incorporate 3 bay like areas and I just dont run a par time on that one, if that adds a bit of time to the match oh well, the fun is worth it. Working on a jungle run now, I'm not sure what that will need. 

 

The long range stage (out to 300) gives people trouble par time wise, lots of bad zeros even amongst experienced shooters. Lots of going to war and wastage of ammo. When people time out on that one it's a mercy rather than a punishment.

 

Nearby Atlanta 3 Gun is a very challenging (and awesome) match and skills wise it can be intimidating to new shooters. Its good for there to be local matches that cater to experienced shooters (you couldn't pay me to miss an A3G monthly) as long as there are some more beginner friendly matches around to accomodate beginners, which is exactly what I try to provide. That feeds new shooters into the more challenging monthly matches which in turn feed the major matches. 

 

So I reckon I think lack of a formal structure that organizes that system is one of the major issues in 3 gun right now. It happens organically in certain places, which end up having strong 3 Gun culture, and doesn't happen elsewhere where 3 gun fizzles. We need all 3 match types for the sport to be healthy, and it sure would be nice to operate with a level system like USPSA. 

 

UML could provide that, but frankly I can't get my club on board the UML train because they don't want to have to adopt the UML pcc stance. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Blockader

[TonytheTiger]

14 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

 

Remember the cool NBC 3GN trailer:

 

Was eye protection not a thing then?

I recently watched some of the old 3GN matches. Every one of those stages could be completed by a novice shooter but I don't recall the pros complaining that it was too easy.

[TonytheTiger]

33 minutes ago, Blockader said:

 

For the match I design stages for, my personal philosophy is to build stages that are executable by new shooters and experienced shooters can just execute them fast.

For better or worse I'm MD'ing the big local here in 2020. This is my stage design plan right now. I want every one to have fun and a reasonable chance of hitting the targets. As far as I'm concerned this almost excludes the use of circus targets though. 

[Chills1994]

2 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Was eye protection not a thing then?

I recently watched some of the old 3GN matches. Every one of those stages could be completed by a novice shooter but I don't recall the pros complaining that it was too easy.

I think that was just for show... for the camera...kinda like "air gunning" it but with a real gun and no ammo.

 

 

[TonytheTiger]

39 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

I think that was just for show... for the camera...kinda like "air gunning" it but with a real gun and no ammo.

 

 

Yeah, I'd still think they'd want it to look legit.

[Bryan 45]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:16 PM, TonytheTiger said:

Was eye protection not a thing then?

I recently watched some of the old 3GN matches. Every one of those stages could be completed by a novice shooter but I don't recall the pros complaining that it was too easy.

 

Remember the trailer?  I remember the filming.  It was incredible at the time, before 3GN quit listening to the customer and decided they knew best.  Yes, the stages were easy, and yes, some of us "pros" complained they were too easy.  It was just a drag race.  Made for good TV for the first couple matches, but got stale quick.  At each match, there would be a few guys with stage times tied at the hundredth of second.  

 

On the eye pro- yeah, those clips with Kalani and Burkett without glasses were filmed off to the side, and it was just an oversight.  

[rowdyb]

Did you have to put up your own money to be a "pro" for 3GN?

[SW39]

Great topic and enjoying the posts, imo, 3-Gun is a personal taste, either you love it or not.

 

Ive, been the 3G match director at my club since 2016 and we've grown from 25 shooters to over 100 at each match and still growing, and the one thing that we have seen help us grow the program each season is listening to the shooters that come to each match and what they want.

 

We run a 7 stage match with 6 squads of 12, two days (72) shooters max each day, Saturday and Sunday.

(2) stages back to back are short classifier size stages which takes a squad the same amount of time to get through 2 stages, as it does one of the other (5) stages.

 

The model we have settled on is (4) monthly matches plus hosting the state championship match for a total of (5) matches each year.  Being in the colder portion of the country, we found 5 matches is just about right, 1st weekend in May through 1st weekend in September.

 

We have a good mix of shooters that travel between 2 - 5 hours one way to come shoot our matches, Where in North Eastern Pennsylvania and our bays were designed around USPSA, but we have use of (1) 15yard bay (6) 25yard bays, (2) 50yard bays, (1) 100yard bay and (1) 300 yard bay to work with.

 

I have a small group of dedicated volunteers that help setup 90% on Friday and the balance is done Saturday morning.  I used to start setup on Friday myself with one other and then finish up Saturday morning and shoot the match on Saturday afternoon with 6 others.  Well our waiting list for the match grew to be over 50 and since I was able to get help on Fridays we Just opened up shooting 2 days to accommodate the requests.  70% of my attendees drive more than hour one way.

 

I have to say I have a different situation at our club, as the club built 9 competition bays, specifically around USPSA, IDPA and ICORE that are for matches only, not for member open use.  So we are able to not interfere with the members using the club, it's only the 300 yard range we grab for our matches.

 

One of the things that increased new shooters at our matches last season was the introduction of our point series.  Other clubs in the area had been doing them and still do, but we found we gained a bunch of new shooters when offered a chance to hone their skills and win prize money at the end of the season.  Making the series your best 4 out of 5 matches allows shooters the ability to miss a match and not be penalized.  

 

Finding the sweet spot that people like and want is key, not matter what type of match you run, but those that say shotgun is not enjoyable, and loading is not part of the fun, have never truly embraced the art of challenging yourself to improve.  You ask any shooter who attends our matches, you will use 3 guns on each stage and you will have to reload at least once with 2 of them.  I work in 45 clay birds per shooter over 7 stages at each match, but it is no hose-fest.    

 

As to shotgun costs, the JM-Pro, M3K and the RI-VR80 get you up and running with shell carriers for under $750.00 if you shop around.  So I don't buy the whole cost thousands of dollars to have fun, maybe to go pro, but not have fun.

 

One of the biggest ways we got many new shooters to start 3-Gun was the Practical PCC Division in 3GN, this allowed shooters to use their pistol, PCC and lower cost shotgun and be in the game.   

 

Next is to promote a safe and fun match with a solid set of rules, I focused on the 3GN rule set and this year we are moving over to UML.  Each season we hold a Range Officer workshop to go over the rules and put together teams of squad RO's for the season.  Hence, building a solid good set of RO leaders for each squad provides the others with a strong base they know everyone is on the same rules and what they are, and your RO's know it.  We even print up the rule book's, not laser printed, but professionally printed and bound books.

 

The bottom line, it takes a good amount of volunteers and as a match director that has been close to burning out more than once in a season,  the balance of the number of matches each season over the quality of the matches is a teetering point that needs to be well balanced.  For me, 5 quality matches a year, for others it might be more monthly smaller matches.  The reality is if you want a quick small match that is run in and out, then 3-Gun is probably not your first choice. 

 

As to how much time at a match, we aim to start by 9:00am and be done by 4:00PM, 6.5 to 7 hours is doable for new shooters 4 times a year, we are working to bring that down to 6 hours in 2020, I will let you know how it goes in 9 months once the 2020 season is over, but whether it's 1, 2 or 3 Guns, if your only enjoyment is getting in and out fast and not enjoying the time spent on the range with others, then any multi-gun match is not your cup of tea.

 

More information about our matches can be found at https://ontelaunee.org/3-gun/ 

 

Happy New Year, Regards - Tom

   

 

 

 

[Bryan 45]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Did you have to put up your own money to be a "pro" for 3GN?

 

For the first year of the Pro Series, we had to qualify based on performance at select major matches from the year prior.  Then send them a $1200 or $1500 check for the season.  (don't remember exactly how much)  This money was returned at the end of the season as long as the shooter completed all the Pro Series matches.  (or maybe it was 3 of the 5 matches,  also don't remember)

 

The Top 30 from the season qualified for the shoot-off at Vegas, under the lights, during SHOT show.  Top 30 also secured their spot for the next season's Pro Series.  Bottom 20 or so had to go to a "qualifier" with other shooters to earn their spot in the Pro Series.  It worked pretty well until the end of the second season when 3GN continued changing up the rules, almost on the fly, and a full 1/2 of the Pro Series shooters told them we weren't coming back.  

 

 

 

 

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, Bryan 45 said:

For the first year of the Pro Series, we had to qualify based on performance at select major matches from the year prior.  Then send them a $1200 or $1500 check for the season.  (don't remember exactly how much)  This money was returned at the end of the season as long as the shooter completed all the Pro Series matches.  (or maybe it was 3 of the 5 matches,  also don't remember)

 

The Top 30 from the season qualified for the shoot-off at Vegas, under the lights, during SHOT show.  Top 30 also secured their spot for the next season's Pro Series.  Bottom 20 or so had to go to a "qualifier" with other shooters to earn their spot in the Pro Series.  It worked pretty well until the end of the second season when 3GN continued changing up the rules, almost on the fly, and a full 1/2 of the Pro Series shooters told them we weren't coming back.  

Yep, this totally goes with what I heard from other people. I had heard a higher dollar amount as well from some folks, but it could have been hyperbole. But to a man they all felt like they'd rather leave than stay no matter what at the end.

[TonytheTiger]

@SW39 sounds like you have this down to a science.

[Sean_ht]

From the perspective of someone who attends the USPSA and Steel-Challenge matches; shotgun (reloading portion), cost, rules, and how the divisions are defined are the main barriers to attend the 3GNs. Furthermore, the PCC division in both USPSA & Steel-Challenge satisfies the desire of shooting with a rifle style gun at a match. 

 

[TonytheTiger]

46 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

 and how the divisions are defined are the main barriers 

Care to walk me through this part?

[Sean_ht]

8 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Care to walk me through this part?

USPSA has 7 divisions (I count limited and limited 10 as one), Steel-Challenge has 9 divisions (+4 for rimfire). So basically they provide a room for almost every taste. 

3 GNs division depends on the range, some places offer 3 division, some 4. I don't have 45cal, so the "heavy metal" division is out. Open division has no limit on anything, so the price for getting neccessary equipment and aftermarket parts (for 3 platforms) puts this division out of my reach. Now 2 divisions are left. Shooting 200yrd with iron sight in "tactical iron" is not fun. Tactical optic does not allow red dot on pistol (at least at the range here)!

 

 

[TonytheTiger]

3 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

USPSA has 7 divisions (I count limited and limited 10 as one), Steel-Challenge has 9 divisions (+4 for rimfire). So basically they provide a room for almost every taste. 

3 GNs division depends on the range, some places offer 3 division, some 4. I don't have 45cal, so the "heavy metal" division is out. Open division has no limit on anything, so the price for getting neccessary equipment and aftermarket parts (for 3 platforms) puts this division out of my reach. Now 2 divisions are left. Shooting 200yrd with iron sight in "tactical iron" is not fun. Tactical optic does not allow red dot on pistol (at least at the range here)!

 

 

So what would your ideal division look like?

[Sean_ht]

1 minute ago, TonytheTiger said:

So what would your ideal division look like?

It is not my job to define a division system comprehensive enough that can attract more shooters. What I expressed are the facts about how compare with the USPSA/Steel-challnge, the 3GNs has a limited number of divisions. In addition, one division is even more narrowed by only allowing one specific cal. (45cal.). 

 

The 3GNs organization should put efforts in analyzing different systems, and modifies their divisions. I just pointed out some of the shortcomings, and made a comparison between a successful system vs. 3GNs.

[TonytheTiger]

But as an outsider looking in I'd like to hear what division you would create that would draw you to 3 gun.

Edited December 31, 2019 by TonytheTiger

[Gene_WI]

1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

But as an outsider looking in I'd like to hear what division you would create that would draw you to 3 gun.

 

I can echo some of what Sean is saying. But here is what would make me love 3 gun.

First and foremost, make accuracy count, two Alphas on paper should not be equivalent to two Deltas. Second, make rifle targets more challenging and maybe incorporate more PRS style rifle shooting, barricades, odd shooting positions and greater range. Stop trying to be all inclusive, .22, PCC only and 2 gun divisions don't belong at a 3 gun events. There are plenty of .22 only completions. PCC only is covered by USPSA. And 2 gun should be its own thing with its own rules.

Divisions, here is what I would make.

Production: Intermediate caliber rifle with one optic. 30 round mags no comps. Tube fed shotgun with 8+1 capacity. Iron sights pistol 15 round mag capacity, no comps no magwells.

Tac optics: Intermediate caliber rifle with upto one magnified and one reflex optic. 30 round mags no comps. Tube fed shotgun with 8+1 capacity. Carry optics pistol 15 round mag capacity,

Limited: Same as production but with no magazine capacity restrictions. Pistols can have magwells rifles can have comps. Pistol mags must be 140mm.

Open: Same as now, no limits.

Heavy metal: .308 rifle with one optic, 20 round mags. Tube fed pump shotgun must be 12 gauge, 10+1 max. Iron sights pistol, must be .40+ 10 round mags.

Heman: .308 (or more) irons sighted rifle, 20 round mags. Tube fed pump shotgun must be 12 gauge, 8+1 max. Iron sights pistol, must be .45 8 round mags. (Should be a bonus for bolt guns)

Banstate: Should be considered.

 

Just my 5 cents. Happy New year to everyone.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Gene_WI

[TonytheTiger]

I agree PCC and 2 gun should do their own thing, but apparently we are in the minority. Never seen .22 rimfire allowed in 3 gun. Ever. 

 

As far as the divisions, your first three have so much overlap that no one will shoot the first two. And good luck with the no rifle comp rules. Almost every rifle sold has a muzzle device and 95 in 100 people don't know the difference between a flash hider and a compensator. And what if its a brake only with no compensation features? How do you enforce this? An approved compensator list with a picture book to go with it?

 

All forms of Heavy might as well be condensed loke a lot of matches are doing already. When there's 3 Heavy divisions and 5 people shooting a 308, you see what I'm getting at.

[Gene_WI]

11 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I agree PCC and 2 gun should do their own thing, but apparently we are in the minority. Never seen .22 rimfire allowed in 3 gun. Ever. 

 

As far as the divisions, your first three have so much overlap that no one will shoot the first two. And good luck with the no rifle comp rules. Almost every rifle sold has a muzzle device and 95 in 100 people don't know the difference between a flash hider and a compensator. And what if its a brake only with no compensation features? How do you enforce this? An approved compensator list with a picture book to go with it?

 

All forms of Heavy might as well be condensed loke a lot of matches are doing already. When there's 3 Heavy divisions and 5 people shooting a 308, you see what I'm getting at.

 

I respectfully disagree on divisions. Currently there is no "carry optics" equivalent in 3 gun, and that sucks. RDS equipped pistols are the  future, and the current reality. There needs to be division for these that is not open.

 

Comps etc... There need to be clear rules on these, and also rules for suppressors on rifles.