Limited Major dying?

[drdre352]

With Limited Optics coming in with red dots & 9mm… is Limited Major a dying division like Production when CO came along?  I am seeing more Limited 40’s up for sale, and the one I have up has no interest especially being new.  To be fair, seems like I am also seeing Open Major guns being up for sale.  

Edited September 1, 2023 by drdre352

[RJH]

Yes

[Sarge]

49 minutes ago, RJH said:

Yes

Yep. Very few non optic guns at all being used lately.

[Sandbagger123]

slap a dot on a limited major gun,  load some 40 minor and you have a LO gun.  that is what i am going to do for next season 

[scroadkill]

Well, carry optics put a huge dent in limited.. leaving only the serious fans.. and LO is killing off the last hold outs. 100% of the limited guys I shot against are all at least trying the dot with mixed results. This trial period may kick back a few into irons, but will certainly hurt the local numbers long term. IMO limited will be like single stack and production. a few fans who prep for a major for a while, but then flip back to a dot once the major season is past.

I can see chatting up the old limited guys for a match now and then to get out the irons now and then.

 

[Rnlinebacker]

Consumers are speaking with their participation. Irons aren't popular much anymore. Nothing wrong with that, the game is evolving. 

 

I'm glad there's a separate Nats for Limited. I hope it stays that way so I can always go back to it after Open nats. 

[Racinready300ex]

I'm still not 100% sure it's the optic...well at least not all the optic. For sure people want to shoot optics because optics are gooder. 

 

I think most people coming into the sport want to shoot 9mm hi cap and there is only one option for that, CO...well now two with LO. But either way if you want to shoot 9mm minor you need to shoot a optic division, doesn't matter if you really want to or not. 

 

No one coming in wants to shoot 40, Limited numbers are down and we already know something like 50% of the people that do shoot it are shooting minor even though it's holding back their results.

 

There is a level 2 the end of this month that looks like it wont even have 10 Limited shooters. Limited is barely hanging on. 

[shred]

This.  Limited numbers have been high because for a long time there was nowhere else to go that was hicap and not full-on race gun.   Now it's not.

 

With the huge turnover in USPSA it's not too surprising that people aren't going out and building Limited guns in the numbers they used to since there are more other places to play.

 

Dots are still a tiny minority of pistol sales and shooters "real world", despite what the latest issue of BitchinGunGuyMedia says.  If you just shoot USPSA, you have an artificially warped view of things because there is no hicap irons factory gun division.   

 

Dots are easier than irons (until you get to the WHO stage  ) and the people doing stage setup are setting up for hicap dot guns these days, but wander through a gun store and see what's for sale.

 

[zzt]

FWIW, 40sw minor is softer and quieter than 9mm minor.  Muzzle rise is lower.  There is absolutely no disadvantage to putting a dot on your Limited gun if you want to shoot LO.  I've done it for years.  When my eyes said switch to Open (before CO was a thing), I put a dot on my Limited gun and shot it in Open for SCSA.  Currently, I use it for plate and pin matches.  I have 9mm Open guns for all sanctioned matches.

 

I don't think Limited is dying around me.  We did lose a few to CO.  A couple that moved to CO now shoot Open.  Most that still shoot Limited are very, very good.  They have no intention of switching.

 

IMO, the popularity of the 9mm minor Divisions is suitable factory ammo.  An astonishing number (at least to me) of USPSA and SCSA shooters do not reload.  9mm factory makes minor PF, is affordable, and easily obtainable.  It makes sense,  Honestly, if I were just getting into the USPSA/SCSA game today, it would be CO or LO with factory.  I'm toying with the idea of shooting Open minor next year, just so I can use factory.  I spend waaaay too much time reloading.

[Racinready300ex]

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, zzt said:

I don't think Limited is dying around me. 

 

 

 

You're in PA right? Area 8 just happened and there wasn't enough shooters in Limited for it to count as a classifier. LO is only 4 months old and it had almost as many shooters. VA is a little south of you, but many of the guys in your area will come down for the VA state that has less than 10 Limited shooters squaded. 

 

Area 8 - 42 Limited shooters  (2018 this match had 130 Limited shooters)

West PA - 21

Mid A - 28

DMV - 19

MD state -23

 

Seems like there is less than 30 serious Limited shooters in the Area. Limited is for sure on life support here. 

[Joe4d]

4 hours ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Consumers are speaking with their participation. Irons aren't popular much anymore. Nothing wrong with that, the game is evolving. 

 

I'm glad there's a separate Nats for Limited. I hope it stays that way so I can always go back to it after Open nats. 

I disagree,,
USPSA in their continued boneheadedness still doesnt have a division where a basic service pistol, shooting factory 9mm loaded to capacity is competitive. You know the most common pistol in America.
Go to a 140 mm mag or box rule in production. 
CO didnt become popular until the 10 round limit went away..  LO woulda been dead in the water if it was major ,  
These divisions boomed because of the ammo and capacity fit the game.

[rishii]

Limited is dying for a couple of reasons

Everyone wants cheap speed, lots of shooters want to play in open but with the price of a good open gun starting in the grands Can’t or won’t buy one

 

a lot of limited shooters are getting older and can’t see the sights 

 

I’m in the second category, and put on dot on my old safe queen limited gun and loaded 40 minor ammo, I shot a couple of matches so far and I definitely prefer open

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

IMO, the popularity of the 9mm minor Divisions is suitable factory ammo.  An astonishing number (at least to me) of USPSA and SCSA shooters do not reload.  9mm factory makes minor PF, is affordable, and easily obtainable.  It makes sense,  Honestly, if I were just getting into the USPSA/SCSA game today, it would be CO or LO with factory.  I'm toying with the idea of shooting Open minor next year, just so I can use factory.  I spend waaaay too much time reloading.

 

I do see alot of noobs shooting factory ammo, which I rarely used to see. i guess i am too frugal for that, because reloading still costs half as much even for 9, and I also prefer the recoil impulse and consistency. It does cost me some time, but it's like 15 mins a day on average, while sipping coffee in the morning or a beer in the evening,  or while stuck on a boring conference call for work.

[Baynewrady]

Limited is dying because the new wave of shooters aren't interested in/are afraid of shooting .40 Cal. On top of that iron sight divisions in general are all dying out. 

 

The industry/marketing are all pushing red dots and 9mm guns, as a result CO & LO are the divisions with the largest participation. 

 

Not sure that anything can really be done to revive Limited. With Production going to 15 rounds soonish, trying to eliminate Major scoring from Limited seems nonsensical. Personally, as a newer shooter in USPSA, I'll be sticking with Limited till my eyes go, simply because I enjoy the challenge of .40 Cal & iron sights, and the feeling of beating dot shooters is pretty rewarding. I plan to shoot Single Stack in the future for similar reasons. 

[robchavous]

It's just representative of a market shift.  General gun owners have little to no interest in 40.  Most LEO agencies are moving away from it.  Major manufacturer's like Sig aren't even making guns for it anymore. 

 

 

[whan]

38 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I do see alot of noobs shooting factory ammo, which I rarely used to see. i guess i am too frugal for that, because reloading still costs half as much even for 9, and I also prefer the recoil impulse and consistency. It does cost me some time, but it's like 15 mins a day on average, while sipping coffee in the morning or a beer in the evening,  or while stuck on a boring conference call for work.

 

Factory 9mm has gotten reasonably close though, for me the reloading cost saving hasn't been compelling enough vs. the time and effort in the 3.5 years I've been in the sport now. I will say the ability to tune your ammo is the main reason I considered it - it's been a headache over the years finding the perfect factory load. For a while I thought Blazer 115 was it, but then I almost went subminor (126pf) at a major. Currently shooting Super Vel 124 reloads although they're a bit on the hotter side for gamer ammo (137pf at my last major chrono)

[outerlimits]

major optics

major irons

minor optics

minor irons

 

done.

[ltdmstr]

15 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

major optics

major irons

minor optics

minor irons

 

done.

 

Totally agree.  As for shooting factory 9, a dot gun with minor pf means far less time spent on shooting skills vs. course negotiation, so there's practically no range time and therefore reloading is less attractive.  Also, matches around here are sometimes 75+% newbies who get their info from the internet gun experts.  So, they're all down for looking cool, having the latest gear (gotta be a 9 w/a dot) and LARPing.  I mean, it's pretty standard now for dudes to show up for a match with an IFAK, including obligatory tourniquet, glow sticks, and all kinds of other kit.  Kinda nuts.

[shred]

10 hours ago, zzt said:

 An astonishing number (at least to me) of USPSA and SCSA shooters do not reload.

Back in the day the next call you made after the one to join USPSA was to Dillon.  About nobody shot factory ammo, even if it was available because reloading made a whole lot of sense financially.

 

In these days of $80/k primers it's not easy to load even range pickup brass much under the $10/50 you can find ammo on sale.

 

[GunBugBit]

I’ll be an exclusively irons competitor until my eyes need an optic.  Until then I’m content often being the only guy on squads without an optic.

Edited September 2, 2023 by GunBugBit

[RJH]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Back in the day the next call you made after the one to join USPSA was to Dillon.  About nobody shot factory ammo, even if it was available because reloading made a whole lot of sense financially.

 

In these days of $80/k primers it's not easy to load even range pickup brass much under the $10/50 you can find ammo on sale.

 

 

 

Where have you found 9 mm for 10 bucks for 50 rounds? The best I've found is $12 for 50 rounds, plus shipping which ends up being around 25 or 26 cents a round

[RJH]

59 minutes ago, GunBugBit said:

I’ll be an exclusively irons competitor until my eyes need an optic.  Until then I’m content often being the only guy on squads without an optic.

 

 

That is where I used to be, but then limited optics came to be and I decided to give it a try. With the combo of the DOT, and super cheap 9mm, I am liking it. Though I probably will still shoot an occasional match in limited and single stack 

[MadBomber]

As far as eyes going and not being able to run irons, just have a set of "MAGIC" glasses made by your optometrist.

 

Have the dominate lens set for the sweet spot to be about 6 inches past your out stretched hand.  Have the other lens set for normal distance.  NO BIFOCALS!  

 

Magic glasses work.  Been there, doing that.

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, MadBomber said:

As far as eyes going and not being able to run irons, just have a set of "MAGIC" glasses made by your optometrist.

 

Have the dominate lens set for the sweet spot to be about 6 inches past your out stretched hand.  Have the other lens set for normal distance.  NO BIFOCALS!  

 

Magic glasses work.  Been there, doing that.

Sadly I have trifocal progressives so not an option hahaha 

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, MadBomber said:

As far as eyes going and not being able to run irons, just have a set of "MAGIC" glasses made by your optometrist.

 

Have the dominate lens set for the sweet spot to be about 6 inches past your out stretched hand.  Have the other lens set for normal distance.  NO BIFOCALS!  

 

Magic glasses work.  Been there, doing that.

I tried that and they had to be put on quite awhile before shooting as they played mind games(literally)with me. I never really got used to them so I did the only rational thing and went to Open.