Limited Major dying?

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, Midwest3Gunner said:

Sorry, I meant a bunch of different 2011 configurations. You had 5, 5.4, 6in barrels, bushing or bull, long, short, intermediate dust covers. Sight trackers, island barrels, poly grips, aluminum, and steel. Thumb rest or not, racker or not. I just don't see that mix in LO. I shot a TSO for a season, I really liked it but I wanted to tinker more, so I switched back to a 2011. I would bet everything settles out at a 4.6 slide full dustcover with a steel grip as being the most common setup.

 

Oh yeah, I got you now. For sure that'll be a thing. These LO guns seem totally different to me. 

 

I set the gun I'm shooting up and it felt sluggish and took some playing with to get it to feel like I wanted. I'm sure there will be all new theories as to what's the new best way to set one up. 

[Midwest3Gunner]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I repurposed a limited gun into a LO gun. New slide was like 200. New barrel was maybe 250, 350 for a dot, 150 for a plate. So 950. Reused basically everything else, holster, mag pouches etc. (really I had a old barrel laying around too)

 

VS 600 for a plastic rival and 350 for a dot the same dot would be 950 minimum. Add a brass back strap, tungsten guide rod, fancy trigger, replace the springs, Maybe a better magwell as the stock one is kinda trashy. Maybe a better holser and mag pouches. You'll have more into this build. 

 

Really I just wanted to do it, more than I was worried about the numbers. 

Yeah, I'm going to finish the season (1 more local) with limited and then start looking hard for either open or do something with my limited gun. A new top end is a good idea, the frame doesn't care what caliber it is, just the ramp profile. If a new top end is a 1k, it makes you wish you could offload a 40 top end and 7 Infinity mags and break even.

[Runswithwood1]

I'm betting within the next 5 years anything un-dotted and low capacity is gonna be next to dead

[bulm540]

4 hours ago, Runswithwood1 said:

I'm betting within the next 5 years anything un-dotted and low capacity is gonna be next to dead

on life support here in TN.

[Runswithwood1]

1 hour ago, bulm540 said:

on life support here in TN.

I can't say im surprised, the majority of what I see is limited/carry optics, dwindling numbers of limited, production and especially  single stack

[outerlimits]

5 hours ago, Runswithwood1 said:

I'm betting within the next 5 years anything un-dotted and low capacity is gonna be next to dead

new hider division...

[GunBugBit]

Limited is alive and well at my club.  Single Stack and Production, not so much.

[cautery]

NO ONE wants to hear the truth.

Edited September 26, 2023 by cautery
Fscksticks

[sfinney]

22 hours ago, cautery said:

 

The entire idea and philosophy being executed in this sport has shifted to easy, lazy, cheap.
I'm glad I got to know the sport before it became what it is today.

None of those were in the top 10 considerations in 2001.

Clay, not sure how the sport is getting cheap….  Everything (not just ammo components) has become more expensive since 1994 (or 2001).

 

Used to be you showed up with single stack Springfield, or Para, or Glock….. this was when it was Open / Limited. Before Production and Single Stack. Everyone did the best they could with what was available, and expensive was getting a gun “tuned” by a top gunsmith, not CNCing a brand new one from scratch.  I remember throwing a Colt 10mm slide on a prize table SVI frame as my first 2011, and having Clark’s fit the barrel……. Came out nice but it was a “parts gun”. Or buying a complete new factory STI or even SV for under $1500. In the early 2000’s I remember buying a new Brazos semi- custom or.  tuned Dawson for $2kish.

 

Production became a gear war, and now days if you show up with Carry Optics that doesn’t cost $2k plus, you are slumming, or in Limited and Open you “need” a $5k full custom gun to be considered serious. 
None of that seems cheap.
 

Now, Easy, lazy…. Yeah, that’s me.  

[whan]

Take with a grain of salt as I am a millennial, but sometimes the comments about the popularity of CO/LO meaning that the game of USPSA is becoming "soft" or "lazy", gives me "ok boomer" vibes...

 

Yes, of course in a vacuum, optics is easier than irons, minor easier than major, but at the same time all competitors have the same advantages meaning the required performance output to be competitive is higher. I don't see the same type of criticism of open division - arguably the most advantaged with optics, low recoil, major scoring, highest capacity. If shooting more difficult guns / divisions is to be celebrated, then those people should be advocating to shoot single stack major, which outside Revo is arguably the most difficult current division. 

 

Bottom line is that USPSA is a gear-centric sport, and that gear is constantly going to be evolving to be higher performance (and yes, easier to use). But just like auto racing, it would be a mistake to not allow the sport to reflect that. Is a modern 24 hours of Lemans car easier to drive than one from the 1960s? Almost certainly, but we also expect much faster performance from the modern car. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by whan

[ltdmstr]

2 hours ago, whan said:

Yes, of course in a vacuum, optics is easier than irons, minor easier than major, but at the same time all competitors have the same advantages meaning the required performance output to be competitive is higher.

 

Actually, what it means is less emphasis on shooting, and more on who can negotiate the course faster while popping off a few rounds along the way.

[BritinUSA]

13 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Actually, what it means is less emphasis on shooting, and more on who can negotiate the course faster while popping off a few rounds along the way.

Agreed; And one of the reasons why we should have a few divisions that are round-restricted. The more rounds in the magazine the less important first-shot accuracy becomes. 
 

With fewer rounds available there's a greater chance of a standing reload if you miss a few shots. 
 

• Reveolver has 6/8 rounds.
• Single-Stack has 8/10 rounds.
• Production & ProdOptics should be either 10 or 15.
• Limited & LO has 20/24 rounds.
• Open around 30-32 rounds.

 

[whan]

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Actually, what it means is less emphasis on shooting, and more on who can negotiate the course faster while popping off a few rounds along the way.

 

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. What it means is that there’s a stronger emphasis on efficiency, and while some of that is going to be purely from movement, some of it is also around shooting-based skills. I spent my first 3 years of USPSA solely in single stack and switched to CO a year ago, so have a good frame of reference on the key differences. 

 

Relative to SS, you need shoot more aggressively in CO to be competitive. A lot more things like shooting steel/partials on the move, hitting difficult swingers on the first pass, fast plate rack arrays, shooting while falling out of position are risks I often wouldn’t take in SS but need to take in CO. Those are all shooting skills as well

Edited September 26, 2023 by whan

[Fishbreath]

9 hours ago, whan said:

Relative to SS, you need shoot more aggressively in CO to be competitive.

 

I've heard this idea expounded on in this way: in CO you can afford to shoot fast enough to make the occasional mistake, because it works 90%-99% of the time, and you spend less time fixing the mistake than it would have taken to avoid making it in the first place.

 

It's definitely a different style of shooting than locap divisions—a little more focus on celeritas, and less on diligentia (at least, diligentia on the first shot). The way different divisions turn that dial different ways is part of the fascination of the sport, to me.

[Racinready300ex]

12 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Actually, what it means is less emphasis on shooting, and more on who can negotiate the course faster while popping off a few rounds along the way.

 

Sort of, but at a point you can only negotiate any stage so fast. At the higher levels most of the shooters are going to put up similar times and the winner is going to be the guy with the most points. So there is  still a emphasis on shooting, only you're forced to do that shooting vary fast or you wont be in the mix to begin with. Every make up shot you take is hurting your time and costing you places in the match. 

[shred]

9 hours ago, whan said:

Relative to SS, you need shoot more aggressively in CO to be competitive. A lot more things like shooting steel/partials on the move, hitting difficult swingers on the first pass, fast plate rack arrays, shooting while falling out of position are risks I often wouldn’t take in SS but need to take in CO. Those are all shooting skills as well

I think most of that is the difference between a dot and iron sights.  Being capacity-challenged does lower the risk tolerance a little, but not that much.

 

FWIW, 50 yard standards were "standard" at Nationals and Area matches even in the iron sight days.  These days the longest shot at PCC/Open Nationals was maybe 30 yards on a big popper.  Hard to say the shooting standards haven't declined.

 

[MHicks]

4 minutes ago, shred said:

I think most of that is the difference between having a dot and iron sights.  

 

 

This. Plus in the locap divisions you more often have to go one for one on your shots to avoid standing reloads. Shooting Limited or LO I can shoot more aggressively.  However, I am just a B level shooter. Probably affects a higher level shooter less.

[RJH]

No division is easier or harder than another, they're just different.

 

As far as 50 yard standards at majors and such, does anybody think top shooters can't make those same shots today? I don't. Hell I can make 50 yd shots if I take my time fairly easily, and that's with a single stack gun and iron sights, and I'm just a crappy a/b/shooter.

 

I will say this though, you watch videos of Old Nationals and such and those guys don't move anywhere like the people do now. Does that mean I think that they couldn't compete today, not at all, just that things change. Just like if we put out 50 yard standards at Nationals, the guys that win today wouldn't be out classed by the old timers

[whan]

 

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I've heard this idea expounded on in this way: in CO you can afford to shoot fast enough to make the occasional mistake, because it works 90%-99% of the time, and you spend less time fixing the mistake than it would have taken to avoid making it in the first place.

 

It's definitely a different style of shooting than locap divisions—a little more focus on celeritas, and less on diligentia (at least, diligentia on the first shot). The way different divisions turn that dial different ways is part of the fascination of the sport, to me.

 

 

I agree - the nuance is I don't know if you spend less time fixing the mistake per se, but when you combine it with the probability of making the mistake, you end up ahead. On a plate rack, for each plate if shooting 0.04 second faster splits means you have a 20% chance of making a mistake that costs you 0.2 seconds for a makeup shot, you'd break even overall. If you do make a mistake, it will cost you more, but you're willing to take the risk as it'll pay off in aggregate. In this scenario, if you're able to shoot 0.20 splits instead of 0.25, you'd take the 20% chance of a makeup that costs you 0.20 as the risk adjusted time to completion is lower. In something like single stack, there's the additional risk of a standing reload which means it's not worth taking the probability adjusted risk

 

1 hour ago, shred said:

FWIW, 50 yard standards were "standard" at Nationals and Area matches even in the iron sight days.  These days the longest shot at PCC/Open Nationals was maybe 30 yards on a big popper.  Hard to say the shooting standards haven't declined.

 

 

That's a fair point - can't say I was around during those times so that would definitely be a decline in shooting standards. I've heard IPSC hasn't changed as much though?

 

Overall, I do think that highcap dot divisions are much more beginner friendly. It's a lot less likely to have a complete trainwreck of a stage, while in locap iron divisions it's much more likely. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by whan

[cautery]

deleted

Edited September 26, 2023 by cautery
Fscksticks

[cautery]

deleted

Edited September 26, 2023 by cautery
Fscksticks

[Racinready300ex]

41 minutes ago, cautery said:

Cheap attitudes, cheap shooters, weak characters..
 

 

32 minutes ago, cautery said:

LOL!  Yeah, we ROs watch folks like you ZERO stages on 50 yard standards ALL THE TIME.

Anyone who says they CAN shoot standards that have not proven it at Level II+ are just blowing smoke.

PROVE IT.
 

 

You have a lot of strong opinions about todays shooters, especially for a C class shooter that it would appear hasn't shot a match in 10 years. 

 

[RJH]

32 minutes ago, cautery said:

LOL!  Yeah, we ROs watch folks like you ZERO stages on 50 yard standards ALL THE TIME.

Anyone who says they CAN shoot standards that have not proven it at Level II+ are just blowing smoke.

PROVE IT.

Start following the intent of the sport and add standards, long shots on stages, start ACTUALLY testing folks shooting skills....  not trigger splits and running skills.... and how deep the pockets can get.

It's all important to being a well-rounded shooter.  USPSA as a community has LOST focus on BALANCE.

 

Oh FFS

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Oh FFS

 

Does this stand for "Oh, For Fudd's Sake?"

[cautery]

deleted

Edited September 26, 2023 by cautery
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