Limited Optics

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

people can already shoot what they want to shoot. That is not the same thing as changing the rules to give a certain expensive flavor of gun a competitive advantage in a division that is already extremely popular without those guns.

 

But that's exactly what you're doing though.  You're catering to the gun market by creating a division for those guns to not have to compete against open guns.  

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

But that's exactly what you're doing though.  You're catering to the gun market by creating a division for those guns to not have to compete against open guns.  

creating a new division for whiny misfits and tactards is not the same as screwing up a popular existing division. I won't ever shoot LO unless it allows major, so my only concern is keeping custom 2011's out of CO. Since it looks like the BOD is not even considering allowing 2011's in CO, I guess my work here is done. I don't much care about the rest of the issue.

Edited December 28, 2022 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

If you put a dot on a gun, you go it open.

 

LMAO.  CO is a thing and the most popular Division.  Just as you have your opinion I can have mine and I think there is a place for a Minor Optic division of some sort in USPA.  Call it CO that allows SAO only guns, or CO and LO, I could care less. 

 

I advocated to allow SAO in CO, but some how, some way people think its makes a marked difference in the standings to allow those guns.  It doesn't, but they are entitled to their opinions.  

 

 

 

 

[mikeg1005]

Just now, motosapiens said:

creating a new division for whiny misfits and tactards is not the same as screwing up a popular existing division. I won't ever shoot LO unless it allows major, so my only concern is keeping custom 2011's out of CO.

 

I'm ok with this... put 2011s with dots where they belong.  In Open.

 

Regarding tactical timmies, etc.  If those people can't be bothered to purchase equipment to make them competitive in 'our' sport...why are we catering to them and changing what we have?  

This sport had its biggest and most consistent growth when rules were consistent.   The worst thing you can do for an amateur sport is continuously change things.  It doesn't create more members and it just drives people away.  

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I'm ok with this... put 2011s with dots where they belong.  In Open.

 

Regarding tactical timmies, etc.  If those people can't be bothered to purchase equipment to make them competitive in 'our' sport...why are we catering to them and changing what we have?  

This sport had its biggest and most consistent growth when rules were consistent.   The worst thing you can do for an amateur sport is continuously change things.  It doesn't create more members and it just drives people away.  

 

meh. I don't much care what happens in divisions I don't shoot, but to your last point, it seems like growth is still happening, largely due to CO. To me it makes sense both as a cost-effective entry point, and a great learning tool. Additionally, in a modern world where many police agencies are starting to use dots, and many concealed-carriers are using dots, current CO guns are actually pretty close to being 'practical', unlike open guns (or even Limited guns). That's why I'm in favor of leaving CO alone. Whatever else happens in other divisions.... meh.... who cares?

 

I do think dots in L10 is a great idea too. That division is completely stupid now, but with dots it would only be sorta stupid.

Edited December 28, 2022 by motosapiens

[mikeg1005]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

LMAO.  CO is a thing and the most popular Division.  Just as you have your opinion I can have mine and I think there is a place for a Minor Optic division of some sort in USPA.  Call it CO that allows SAO only guns, or CO and LO, I could care less. 

 

I advocated to allow SAO in CO, but some how, some way people think its makes a marked difference in the standings to allow those guns.  It doesn't, but they are entitled to their opinions.  

 

 

That's because CO poached shooters from other divisions.  It wasn't natural growth but its here to stay.  

 

I'm with you though.... put SAOs in CO.  Then all the timmies will have place to shoot the 1-3 matches they'll ever partake in in their entire lifetime lol.   It won't change s#!t and the idea that SA trigger are some massive advantage has been proven to be wrong time and time again in production and CO. 

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

It won't change s#!t and the idea that SA trigger are some massive advantage has been proven to be wrong time and time again in production and CO. 

 

Here we agree.   

[touji]

We’ll all get beat by Turkish kebab guns and spaghetti guns anyways.

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

meh. I don't much care what happens in divisions I don't shoot, but to your last point, it seems like growth is still happening, largely due to CO.

 

What evidence do you have of this?  I am asking as an actual inquiry as when I looked at it the availability of reloading supplies and the flooding of the whole country with gun purchases in the late Obama years seem to sprout growth in shooting sports/guns overall. 

 

Is there data of new USPSA numbers and them going into CO? 

[mikeg1005]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Here we agree.   

 

The real issue though with SAOs is 2011s have a higher capacity than other double stacks.  Its why they're more common than Glocks, CZs, and Tanfos, in limited and open.  There is something to be said about that.  Trigger won't matter... extra round or 2 will. 

[llamasabound]

I for one look forward to changing my registration day of, and adding/removing a magwell, so that I can double my chance at a podium finish at level 2s shooting the exact same gun. 
 

/s

[mikeg1005]

Just now, llamasabound said:

I for one look forward to changing my registration day of, and adding/removing a magwell, so that I can double my chance at a podium finish at level 2s shooting the exact same gun. 
 

/s

 

[CC3D]

I'm a little late to the party here but I just cannot see the justification for this being its own division. The hit factors are going to be the exact same as CO. What is the point of making an entirely new division if its performance is going to be indistinguishable from an already established one?

[ampleworks]

55 minutes ago, Bdh821 said:

Staccato had to rebrand itself after the huge loss of money from the DVC Open.  I, along with many many others had continuous problems with those guns.   I could get them to run, but the cracked comp was a ticking time bomb of those trubor barrels.  I had 10 replacements due to cracked comps!  TEN!

 

STI turned their back on people who built their company chasing blue line dollars. Pepperidge Farm remembers when they produced a pair of guns that had the USPSA logo engraved on the slide. If I ever go back to wanting a 2011, it'll come from SVI or someone else who actually won't spit in our faces.

 

Edit: I can't spell

Edited December 28, 2022 by ampleworks

[mikeg1005]

Just now, ampleworks said:

If I ever go back to wanting a 2011, it'll come from SVI or someone else who actually won't spit in our faces.

 

SV is attempting to start a new sport/matches to compete with USPSA lol. 

[mikeg1005]

8 minutes ago, CC3D said:

I'm a little late to the party here but I just cannot see the justification for this being its own division. The hit factors are going to be the exact same as CO. What is the point of making an entirely new division if its performance is going to be indistinguishable from an already established one?

 

Because people are scared of single action triggers and USPSA catering to gun builders. 

[ampleworks]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

SV is attempting to start a new sport/matches to compete with USPSA lol. 

 

So what changed between now and May when Troy specifically said that limited optics wasn't being considered? If you won't create a division based upon the items you're manufacturing, you either find somewhere that will allow it or you create your own.

[Jim Watson]

5 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

SV is attempting to start a new sport/matches to compete with USPSA lol. 

 

Where can we read about it?

 

 

[mikeg1005]

1 minute ago, Jim Watson said:

 

Where can we read about it?

 

 

 

https://practiscore.com/world-pistol-shootout-i-march-17-19-2023/register

 

[motosapiens]

25 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

What evidence do you have of this?  I am asking as an actual inquiry as when I looked at it the availability of reloading supplies and the flooding of the whole country with gun purchases in the late Obama years seem to sprout growth in shooting sports/guns overall. 

 

Is there data of new USPSA numbers and them going into CO? 

This is purely anecdotal observation on  my part. Unlike most of the people who comment on this topic, I am actually an active participant in USPSA, building stages, working major matches, helping put on matches at my local club, and sometimes giving new shooter briefings. We have seen a crap-ton of new shooters at our club in the last year or two, and the majority of them are shooting CO. Many of them showed up for the first time with guns they already had for carry or home/car defense that fit fine in CO.

[RJH]

26 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

The real issue though with SAOs is 2011s have a higher capacity than other double stacks.  Its why they're more common than Glocks, CZs, and Tanfos, in limited and open.  There is something to be said about that.  Trigger won't matter... extra round or 2 will. 

 

Are you sure about 2011 is getting higher capacity? My current carry ops gun gets 23 + 1 and I have one mag that I can get 24 in but I'm not tested it yet, from everything I've seen 2011 style guns get 23 + 1. You know of a formula that gets you more than that? Because I'm interested if you do

Edited December 28, 2022 by RJH

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, CC3D said:

I'm a little late to the party here but I just cannot see the justification for this being its own division. The hit factors are going to be the exact same as CO. What is the point of making an entirely new division if its performance is going to be indistinguishable from an already established one?

To avoid screwing up the most popular division in the sport. Currently CO is popular, and fun, and a diverse array of mfrs are well-represented. This makes it easy to get support and sponsorship dollars from sig and cz and canik and walther. Allowing SAO guns will quickly cause everyone in the division to shoot 2011's (just like every other division where 2011's are allowed). In terms of sponsorship, business, and practicality, it's objectively a losing proposition for the sport.

[mikeg1005]

Just now, RJH said:

 

Are you sure about 2011 is getting higher capacity? My current carry ops gun gets 23 + 1, from everything I've seen 2011 style guns get 23 + 1. You know of a formula that gets you more than that? Because I'm interested if you do

 

I can stuff 24+1 in a 142mm mag in open of 9mm and that isn't really even tuned so I'm assuming you can get 24 reloadable maybe 25+1?

 

In limited 40 cal guys are running 21+1 or even 22+1 in 2011s... From talking to the CZ and Glock guys they're at 20+1.  

[RJH]

1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

I can stuff 24+1 in a 142mm mag in open of 9mm and that isn't really even tuned so I'm assuming you can get 24 reloadable maybe 25+1?

 

In limited 40 cal guys are running 21+1 or even 22+1 in 2011s... From talking to the CZ and Glock guys they're at 20+1.  

Why do you have a 142 mm mag, that's not legal in limited / carry ops so I need to know what legal mags do.

 

I have seen one guy with a 22 round mag in limited that they did some voodoo over, I think I know one other guy that's got a 22 round mag but he's shooting a para and those mags tend to hold a little more. 

 

But to be honest, I don't think 23 + 1 versus 24 + 1 is actually anything to worry about

[mikeg1005]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

To avoid screwing up the most popular division in the sport. Currently CO is popular, and fun, and a diverse array of mfrs are well-represented. This makes it easy to get support and sponsorship dollars from sig and cz and canik and walther. Allowing SAO guns will quickly cause everyone in the division to shoot 2011's (just like every other division where 2011's are allowed). In terms of sponsorship, business, and practicality, it's objectively a losing proposition for the sport.

 

So you want to intentionally handicap the division so people can't shoot 'better' guns that match the name of the division to tee and instead make another division lol.  
 

Why are you scared of 2011s?