Staff reset

[mlmiller1]

I am curious why any r.o. would volunteer for staff reset match.  I've always felt part of being a shooter is helping by resetting.   I guess it would lower the frustration having to continue to "encourage " people to reset but it would definitely take away the feeling we are all in this together.   If I(as an r.o.) am doing all your work for you, we are no longer both shooters but I am now a poorly paid servant.  I can make more money easier at my regular work, why tape & reset steel for a bunch of people just watching?  I just can't figure it out.   I am not trying to pick an argument but if there is someone that does a lot of r.o. service that has a view to help me understand, please share it with me.   If this offends anyone,  I apologize up front.  I am just looking for someone to share a different view.  

Thanks!

[Dirty_J]

It’s just a different business model. 
 

Some MD’s look at shooters as indentured servants… and some look upon them as customers (which they are). 
 

Why you’d want to work it… because you’re volunteering all the same… getting paid or a prize table walk. 

 

Theres nothing more irritating at a major that having an RO and a scorekeeper doing their thing on the stage… and other staff just standing around while the customers are resetting. 
 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

I am curious why any r.o. would volunteer for staff reset match.  I've always felt part of being a shooter is helping by resetting.   I guess it would lower the frustration having to continue to "encourage " people to reset but it would definitely take away the feeling we are all in this together.   If I(as an r.o.) am doing all your work for you, we are no longer both shooters but I am now a poorly paid servant.  I can make more money easier at my regular work, why tape & reset steel for a bunch of people just watching?  I just can't figure it out.   I am not trying to pick an argument but if there is someone that does a lot of r.o. service that has a view to help me understand, please share it with me.   If this offends anyone,  I apologize up front.  I am just looking for someone to share a different view.  

Thanks!

 

I've never been to a staff reset match, but I have a feeling there are more than one CRO and one or two ROs working stages in matches such as those.

 

As far as I know this kind of arrangement is only seen at level 2 and higher matches.  People go to those to seriously compete even if its with themselves and I'm sure many welcome the break to focus on only their shooting.

 

I doubt money is the main motivator for those who volunteer to work in those kinds of matches.

 

I guess the bigger question is..........who cares?  If you don't want to RO at a staff reset match, don't.  Nobody will think anything of it.

[Joe4d]

Well I ro'd and Cro majors,, humm dont really recall any payment or rewards other than a shirt... Got a knife once. Just do it because I enjoyed the game.. Enjoyed watching the pros come out. and am just the type to get involved for the sake of the game.
I also imagine there are plenty like me. I also know there are folks like me, but also dont want the responsibility or feel they are qualified to RO that would probably sign up to help as resetters for the same reasons I RO'd. 
Shooters resetting at majors is not the norm outside the US from what I have heard. 

 

[shred]

Big IPSC matches like the World Shoot and L3s have paid resetters that are separate from the ROs.  Lower level IPSC matches do too, depending on the availability of local labor.

[Schutzenmeister]

I've also seen the model where shooters are required to spend 1/2 day during the match acting as pasters and reset assistants.  Under this model EVERYONE has to help sometime during the match, but not during the periods when they are shooting.

[EEH]

South Carolina,, and North Carolina state matches are two that staff resets. All you do is shoot and plan next shoot. I’ve worked them and shot as a competitor and it’s great . Both get some money plus shoot for free if you work all days. 

[RJH]

3 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I've also seen the model where shooters are required to spend 1/2 day during the match acting as pasters and reset assistants.  Under this model EVERYONE has to help sometime during the match, but not during the periods when they are shooting.

 Hell no LOL 

[Balakay]

4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I've also seen the model where shooters are required to spend 1/2 day during the match acting as pasters and reset assistants.  Under this model EVERYONE has to help sometime during the match, but not during the periods when they are shooting.

sounds awful. Don't they do this in Canada

2 hours ago, EEH said:

South Carolina,, and North Carolina state matches are two that staff resets. All you do is shoot and plan next shoot. I’ve worked them and shot as a competitor and it’s great . Both get some money plus shoot for free if you work all days. 

I have shot NC as well as GA state and A6 with this format.  It is so much more enjoyable as a competitor and much more efficient. 

[mlmiller1]

20 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

I guess the bigger question is..........who cares?  If you don't want to RO at a staff reset match, don't.  Nobody will think anything of it.

It's a deal.  I won't be working any staff reset matches.  I just have to adjust to the thought of going to a match & not helping.   For 24 plus years, I have never been to a match where I didn't lend a hand.  Even if I wasn't r.o.ing, I would help.  If I got out early,  I would help hang new targets or after lunch, help get stage ready.  Maybe that has been detrimental to my shooting but I always felt it was a group effort.  Once it's staff reset, it becomes shooters & r.o.s, completely separate.   No longer a group effort.  Thanks guys for expressing your opinions without anger.

[MHicks]

The staff reset could work if you're trying to have shooters with small squads (I've seen this with 6 per squad) shoot the entire match in half a day with approximately 30 minutes per stage. But I wouldn't see the need at typical matches with full size squads where you have morning and afternoon rotation. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

I just have to adjust to the thought of going to a match & not helping.

 

You can choose to not compete in staff reset matches, if re-setting means that much to you.

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

It's a deal.  I won't be working any staff reset matches.  I just have to adjust to the thought of going to a match & not helping.   For 24 plus years, I have never been to a match where I didn't lend a hand.  Even if I wasn't r.o.ing, I would help.  If I got out early,  I would help hang new targets or after lunch, help get stage ready.  Maybe that has been detrimental to my shooting but I always felt it was a group effort.  Once it's staff reset, it becomes shooters & r.o.s, completely separate.   No longer a group effort.  Thanks guys for expressing your opinions without anger.

 

It seems like a interesting place to be. You're so big on helping reset all day you wont work a match where you'd have to reset all day. 

[Thomas H]

On 12/17/2022 at 8:19 PM, Dirty_J said:

Theres nothing more irritating at a major that having an RO and a scorekeeper doing their thing on the stage… and other staff just standing around while the customers are resetting. 
 

 

 

Given that the expectation for those matches are that all shooters reset their stage---it is literally part of the match, normally literally written into the matchbook, and is a common factor of the majority of matches since pretty much forever---given all that, I'm thinking that if competitors are grumpy about having to reset, that tells us a lot about them.  Probably more than they want to let us know.

 

If someone thinks "staff just standing around" equates to "lazy people who don't want to help" or something similar (maybe "how dare they take a second to relax from working the entire match while the shooters reset the stage according to the expectations given in the matchbook" or something?) then I'm not sure exactly what that person thinks match staff does.  Very odd for someone who has worked a nationals to say, really.

 

I know that when I'm working a major match, if there is enough staff on the stage, we rotate jobs because one job normally has slightly less to do, which means it is the "rest" job---because unlike competitors, you are literally doing someone at all points in time the rest of the time, and getting a break, no matter how minor, is important.

 

At most matches, the competitors are literally all expected to reset the stage.  It is (almost always) literally in the matchbook.  Being irritated when competitors have to go out and paste the three targets that are their part of the stage reset while some match staff are taking a breather from running the last hundred shooters seems....odd.

 

 

 

[OPENB]

I've shot 2 matches with staff reset, SC Sectional and Ft. Benning 3 Gun. One was volunteer, the other volun-told, ie. US Army privates assigned to the ranges that day. Our first stage at SC, we went out to reset, and were asked, "what are you doing?" We thought we were in trouble for something. They then said, no, you're on vacation, go get ready for your next stage. If you have the opportunity to shoot such a match, I recommend it.

 

I appreciate match staff that work in the heat for several days more than I can say. Some things I've learned as a shooter, bring a chair. Rest when you can rest, work when it's time to work. By the end of the day, you'll have gas in the tank to help with concentration. I can see it on people's faces that have been standing all day. They're exhausted. After the last shot, I'm the first out to reset. But I don't stand around much after. Stay hydrated, have some carbs/protein. As the song goes, remember sunscreen.

[broadside72]

The match also needs enough cash coming in to offset the additional costs for the additional staff needed to reset without impacting match flow. The typical 3 RO stage staff can't score, address stage issues, etc and reset efficiently enough to not impact match flow. Thus you need more staff. More staff means less funds coming in (match fee waived) or more funds going out (staff pay, shirts, lunches, lodging, per diems, etc) so you need high enough match fees to offset or more shooters actually paying to play. 

 

 

[ddc]

17 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

The match also needs enough cash coming in to offset the additional costs for the additional staff needed to reset without impacting match flow. The typical 3 RO stage staff can't score, address stage issues, etc and reset efficiently enough to not impact match flow. Thus you need more staff. More staff means less funds coming in (match fee waived) or more funds going out (staff pay, shirts, lunches, lodging, per diems, etc) so you need high enough match fees to offset or more shooters actually paying to play. 

 

 

 

That's a good point. For a staff reset type of match how many staff are typically working each stage>?

[rowdyb]

No truly professional event uses a similar mix of volunteers and competitors. You're either an entrant or a volunteer, not both. One reason why uspsa matches will never be considered professional. 

 

Secondly I would pay double what I've paid for match fees previously to not reset. Double.

[motosapiens]

25 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

No truly professional event uses a similar mix of volunteers and competitors. You're either an entrant or a volunteer, not both. One reason why uspsa matches will never be considered professional. 

 

Secondly I would pay double what I've paid for match fees previously to not reset. Double.

 

if it were a 'professional event', you and I and everyone else in this thread would be watching on TV, not competing. I don't care what they do at professional events, but it seems reasonable that nfl players don't have to take turns acting as referee.

 

I wouldn't pay an extra dollar to not reset.

[Mcfoto]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

 

That's a good point. For a staff reset type of match how many staff are typically working each stage>?

I would want at least 4. The last two Level 2’s I worked, we only had two ROs on short courses. One stage I worked had four swingers. No way I could have scored AND reset. As CRO, at the stage brief I held a “tutorial” on how exactly we wanted the swingers set.

[Dirty_J]

6 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Given that the expectation for those matches are that all shooters reset their stage---it is literally part of the match, normally literally written into the matchbook, and is a common factor of the majority of matches since pretty much forever---given all that, I'm thinking that if competitors are grumpy about having to reset, that tells us a lot about them.  Probably more than they want to let us know.

 

If someone thinks "staff just standing around" equates to "lazy people who don't want to help" or something similar (maybe "how dare they take a second to relax from working the entire match while the shooters reset the stage according to the expectations given in the matchbook" or something?) then I'm not sure exactly what that person thinks match staff does.  Very odd for someone who has worked a nationals to say, really.

 

I know that when I'm working a major match, if there is enough staff on the stage, we rotate jobs because one job normally has slightly less to do, which means it is the "rest" job---because unlike competitors, you are literally doing someone at all points in time the rest of the time, and getting a break, no matter how minor, is important.

 

At most matches, the competitors are literally all expected to reset the stage.  It is (almost always) literally in the matchbook.  Being irritated when competitors have to go out and paste the three targets that are their part of the stage reset while some match staff are taking a breather from running the last hundred shooters seems....odd.

 

 

 

Literally.  

[Dirty_J]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

No truly professional event uses a similar mix of volunteers and competitors. You're either an entrant or a volunteer, not both. One reason why uspsa matches will never be considered professional. 

 

Secondly I would pay double what I've paid for match fees previously to not reset. Double.

Amen on the first count. 
 

As for the match fees… all the clubs in Area 6 seem to be doing it for about $20-25 more than comparable matches. 
 

$175 is about the norm for State Championships in the area. With staff reset. 
 

So y’all should be asking your MD’s to see their finances.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Secondly I would pay double what I've paid for match fees previously to not reset. Double.

 

+1

 

I think I mentioned this before but one of the very nice things about state and area sporting clays tournaments was nothing to do but shoot and enjoy yourself.

[Sarge]

I hope staff reset doesn’t become normalized. 

[mchapman]

I have shot a couple of matches that the MD had made arrangements for a group of local scouts to work and reset all the stages during the match and I guess it worked ok, I didn't particularly like it as with not helping reset I would stand or sit around and get stiff, plus I wasn't able to get additional looks at the stage to see something that may give me a better plan on shooting it. Over the years I had seen this being done out of the US, mainly the IPSC matches. The one thing that was/is greatly different about these out of country matches was that most of the shooters in europe and asia were usually the well off/rich folks and the "poors" were the ones being paid to work or reset for them as they were the only people with the money and time off to shoot. 

Another example of this is golf, now I don't and never have golfed in my life, but  as a kid I worked for the golf pro to shag balls while they were giving lessons. It seemed that DRS. and Lawyers were the only people that could afford the country club memberships and play golf. Now the top golfers and major events they all have caddies and can't carry their own clubs. Back to a local level tournaments how many of you can/could or do pay for caddies, I don't see it happening because it has progressed to where it is affordable to the masses.

I think that is one of the appealing factors of our sport, is the masses can partake if so inclined.

It sounds like that some of you would roll up to the stop light in your status symbol Cadillac ,next to mine and ask for the Grey Pupon and realize that I'm just a Frenches mustard guy and it may bother some.

I would hope as Sarge has said that it does NOT become normalized for staff reset, I NEED the exercise .LOL