Staff reset

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 hours ago, mchapman said:

I have shot a couple of matches that the MD had made arrangements for a group of local scouts to work and reset all the stages during the match and I guess it worked ok, I didn't particularly like it as with not helping reset I would stand or sit around and get stiff, plus I wasn't able to get additional looks at the stage to see something that may give me a better plan on shooting it. Over the years I had seen this being done out of the US, mainly the IPSC matches. The one thing that was/is greatly different about these out of country matches was that most of the shooters in europe and asia were usually the well off/rich folks and the "poors" were the ones being paid to work or reset for them as they were the only people with the money and time off to shoot. 

Another example of this is golf, now I don't and never have golfed in my life, but  as a kid I worked for the golf pro to shag balls while they were giving lessons. It seemed that DRS. and Lawyers were the only people that could afford the country club memberships and play golf. Now the top golfers and major events they all have caddies and can't carry their own clubs. Back to a local level tournaments how many of you can/could or do pay for caddies, I don't see it happening because it has progressed to where it is affordable to the masses.

I think that is one of the appealing factors of our sport, is the masses can partake if so inclined.

It sounds like that some of you would roll up to the stop light in your status symbol Cadillac ,next to mine and ask for the Grey Pupon and realize that I'm just a Frenches mustard guy and it may bother some.

I would hope as Sarge has said that it does NOT become normalized for staff reset, I NEED the exercise .LOL

 

 

Yes the aww shucks egalitarian ramble. 

 

I doubt you will ever see staff reset become popular anywhere for level 1 matches.

 

I hope it becomes the norm for levels 2 and above.  If someone going to level 2 and 3 matches can't swing another $20 - $30 for entry fee then this might not be the best choice for him.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, broadside72 said:

The match also needs enough cash coming in to offset the additional costs for the additional staff needed to reset without impacting match flow. The typical 3 RO stage staff can't score, address stage issues, etc and reset efficiently enough to not impact match flow. Thus you need more staff. More staff means less funds coming in (match fee waived) or more funds going out (staff pay, shirts, lunches, lodging, per diems, etc) so you need high enough match fees to offset or more shooters actually paying to play. 

 

 

 

It would be pretty stage dependent I think. But 3 guys can get a lot done. One calling scores, one on the tablet, on right behind them with a paster gun. One guy with a paster gun can damn near keep up with the scoring, I know because I've done it as a competitor. Once they call the last target the timer RO can paste that with a paster gun and work back towards the guy coming behind them. Having a 4th guy would hurt, especially if you have steel or activators. Once everyone has a job and knows exactly what targets they reset you can get really efficient with less people. 

 

I've been to area matches with 4 or more guys working the stage. When resetting they typically watch and make sure you get everything and yell at you if the squad isn't resetting fast enough. 

 

The way we do it with 6-8 of the shooters on the squad going down and randomly resetting targets is so inefficient and inevitably leads to some reshoots for targets either not reset or pasted before they were scored etc. Staff reset pretty much eliminates that stuff from what I've seen. 

[RJH]

7 hours ago, mchapman said:

I have shot a couple of matches that the MD had made arrangements for a group of local scouts to work and reset all the stages during the match and I guess it worked ok, I didn't particularly like it as with not helping reset I would stand or sit around and get stiff, plus I wasn't able to get additional looks at the stage to see something that may give me a better plan on shooting it. Over the years I had seen this being done out of the US, mainly the IPSC matches. The one thing that was/is greatly different about these out of country matches was that most of the shooters in europe and asia were usually the well off/rich folks and the "poors" were the ones being paid to work or reset for them as they were the only people with the money and time off to shoot. 

Another example of this is golf, now I don't and never have golfed in my life, but  as a kid I worked for the golf pro to shag balls while they were giving lessons. It seemed that DRS. and Lawyers were the only people that could afford the country club memberships and play golf. Now the top golfers and major events they all have caddies and can't carry their own clubs. Back to a local level tournaments how many of you can/could or do pay for caddies, I don't see it happening because it has progressed to where it is affordable to the masses.

I think that is one of the appealing factors of our sport, is the masses can partake if so inclined.

It sounds like that some of you would roll up to the stop light in your status symbol Cadillac ,next to mine and ask for the Grey Pupon and realize that I'm just a Frenches mustard guy and it may bother some.

I would hope as Sarge has said that it does NOT become normalized for staff reset, I NEED the exercise .LOL

 

Damn bro, you a commie?

[shred]

Downside to staff reset is targets can get scored and pasted before you get a chance to see them.  They did this at the World Shoot.  Stage cycle time was very fast but if you didn't have a delegate checking targets, you didn't see half of the hits as the ROs were walking down each side of the stage hand-signaling the scores back to the scorekeeper, with the pasters right behind them pasting.

 

[JFlowers]

At the SC State (which I have worked as dumb help and RO and basically CRO when the CRO became non-mobile) you typically have a few non-ROs working each stage.  Club members needing work day credits, Boy Scouts, etc.  You go over what you want from them and they are very helpful.

 

One benefit from a staff reset stage is the stage is reset the same way every time.  Not that competitors don't set it back to the best of their ability, but when Bob's job from the match is to reset A and B, A and B are rest the same way all match.  This is especially important with tricky or complex props.

 

As for scoring behind the shooters..... I have always stopped and waited for the shooter if there was a target with any question what so ever.  But a plain visible A A or A C is call it and move on.

 

Man, I need to get back involved and get my certificates back up to par.

[GigG]

16 hours ago, rowdyb said:

No truly professional event uses a similar mix of volunteers and competitors. You're either an entrant or a volunteer, not both. One reason why uspsa matches will never be considered professional. 

 

 

And USPSA isn't a pro event. Even at national's the number of professional shooters is a pretty low percentage of the entry.

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

As for the match fees… all the clubs in Area 6 seem to be doing it for about $20-25 more than comparable matches. 
 

$175 is about the norm for State Championships in the area. With staff reset. 
 

our state championship is going up to $115 this year. Seems high to me, but I expect a great match based on the club's and MD's reps.

[Boomstick303]

40 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

our state championship is going up to $115 this year.

 

High by how much?  Everything costs 20-30% more than 2 years ago, so are match fees going up accordingly?

[Racinready300ex]

48 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

our state championship is going up to $115 this year. Seems high to me, but I expect a great match based on the club's and MD's reps.

 

I haven't paid that low of a entry fee for a USPSA major match ever. This year all the sectionals in this area are $160-$175, I imagine the Area match will be $200+ Area 6 is $255. 

 

Some IDPA matches in the area are still sub $100 but a lot less goes into those than a USPSA match. 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I haven't paid that low of a entry fee for a USPSA major match ever. This year all the sectionals in this area are $160-$175, I imagine the Area match will be $200+ Area 6 is $255. 

maybe your state matches are bigger. Ours our typically only 8-12 stages, shot in 1 or 2 days. I think this is the first one that will be over $100 that I can remember. I'm confident it will also be the most professionally run state match we've had tho.

 

$200+ for an area match seems reasonable to me.... seems little high for a state/section match, but I imagine costs are alot higher back east. Seems like most of the ranges out here are non-profit orgs or publicly owned.

[Boomstick303]

There is a balance for certain.  A balance of what the match offers in comparison to the fee asked to shoot the match.  Is lunch served at the match, size of the prize table etc.?  Food is a huge cost if included, and if we are talking food prices today versus a year ago, then you will easily see a rather large rate increase.  The local Level 2 match our club puts on is under $100 typically which includes lunch both days.  I doubt it will be that cheap if we put any Level 2 matches on in the future.  

[RJH]

Those all seem like very good prices for a level 2 match. I think here it's 150 and up, maybe 175 at this point and that's for a one-day match. One of the newer matches that seems to be real popular is 235 for a 2 day match. I would probably shoot more level twos if they only cost around 100 bucks, but at this point I think I'm a level one guy. 

 

I have found overtime that the cost versus fun Factor for a level two match just isn't there for me anymore. For a hundred bucks, or even a hundred and a quarter, it might be again LOL

[Thomas H]

17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I haven't paid that low of a entry fee for a USPSA major match ever. This year all the sectionals in this area are $160-$175, I imagine the Area match will be $200+ Area 6 is $255. 

 

Some IDPA matches in the area are still sub $100 but a lot less goes into those than a USPSA match. 

 

And $115-$125 is fairly normal for the Sectional matches I've been to.  (At least 5 states-worth of matches.) 

 

People saying $160-$175---that's a good 150% of the match fees I'd expect, so that is pretty much in line with the "it costs a bunch extra to have staff reset" situations that people have been saying.

 

Doing a quick check on PS, I see a number at $135 that were $120-or-so last year, but I can see plenty of others in the $115-to-$135 range.

 

It interests me about people complaining that the sport isn't "professional" enough in level----if it was, wouldn't that mean that most of them wouldn't be able to shoot them?

 

Personally, I don't mind stage resets, because I normally squad with people who all help out.  Pasting 3 targets or setting up 3 steel or a swinger isn't exactly onerous.

 

And I rather like that our sport is for anyone who wants to be a shooter, and isn't "for professionals only."  That's me, though.

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

People saying $160-$175---that's a good 150% of the match fees I'd expect, so that is pretty much in line with the "it costs a bunch extra to have staff reset" situations that people have been saying.

 

 

 

Matches here that are $175 are not staff reset.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

Anyone ever end up on the squad from hell?  I shot Area 8 once, there was one "super squad" guy to not name names. Plus 2 or 3 juniors and their dad. It's been a while. It was a regular occurrence at that match to see the juniors bugging the pro while dad was standing their listening. That alone tied up half our squad not resetting. There were times during the day me and my wife were the only ones resetting the stage while she was on deck and I was in the hole. 

 

I'll avoid a squad with more than one junior or a family like the plague now. You end up on the wrong squad and you're in for a long s#!tty day. 

[rowdyb]

I'm getting out of "the game", but there is a faction of people that would like it professional. And not like it is now, where it is definitely pro-am with emphasis on the amateur. Just like no one deludes themselves that their ymca basketball league is somehow a path to the NBA, but for us your local club is a path to the (air quotes for some sarcasm) highest national event.

Remember when no one got paid for surfing, skating, rock climbing, mountain biking, ping pong, pickle ball, axe throwing? Can you imagine a time where 'action pistol shooting' is added to that list?

I apologize for the thread drift.

Edited December 20, 2022 by rowdyb

[RJH]

All the ones I talked about just a minute ago from 175 to 235 are not staff reset, just wanted to clarify that.

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Anyone ever end up on the squad from hell?  I shot Area 8 once, there was one "super squad" guy to not name names. Plus 2 or 3 juniors and their dad. It's been a while. It was a regular occurrence at that match to see the juniors bugging the pro while dad was standing their listening. That alone tied up half our squad not resetting. There were times during the day me and my wife were the only ones resetting the stage while she was on deck and I was in the hole. 

 

I'll avoid a squad with more than one junior or a family like the plague now. You end up on the wrong squad and you're in for a long s#!tty day. 

 

 

Yep, I've been on squads like that. Now I get on squads that I know people that tape and set. A few of them I may not even really like their personality but as long as they work they are good to go in my book LOL

[Boomstick303]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Anyone ever end up on the squad from hell?

 

Yea, you definitely learn the hard way!  I volunteered to work the first PPC/Pistol USPSA 2 Gun match a couple of years ago.  I really did not pay much attention which squad I put myself on for the staff match.  Wrong decision.  The squad was full of extremely elderly RO/CRO that seem to be officiating just about every Nationals I have been to.  If my memory serves me right we shot 12 stages in one day in the summer in Georgia.  Needless to say we were all zapped so much so that only two of us were resetting every shooter for every stage by ourselves and the others refused to lift a finger for the last 4-5 stages.  They refused to lift a finger and hung out under the shade for those last stages.  I became very vocal that if you can't do the work you shouldn't volunteer by the time the 11th stage rolled around, after giving subtle hints after stage 7.    

 

Never again!!

[Zincwarrior]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

I'm getting out of "the game", but there is a faction of people that would like it professional. And not like it is now, where it is definitely pro-am with emphasis on the amateur. Just like no one deludes themselves that their ymca basketball league is somehow a path to the NBA, but for us your local club is a path to the (air quotes for some sarcasm) highest national event.

Remember when no one got paid for surfing, skating, rock climbing, mountain biking, ping pong, pickle ball, axe throwing? Can you imagine a time where 'action pistol shooting' is added to that list?

I apologize for the thread drift.

No actually. I envision the opposite due to legislation, but we'll stop there before this gets political. 

On the flip side, I would not envision "fully professional" as being a net positive for the sport. 

 

[Nolan]

I remember the good ole days, yeah right!  The range in Norco, Ca. used to host some major matches that were 'staff' reset.  The first year the 'reset staff' was a local high school girls basketball team.  Southern Cal in the summer time, oh my!  The reset staff was paid a small wage and got all the brass to resell to the shooters.  The line to buy back brass was quite long. LOL!

 

Word spread and the next year the match sold out almost immediately....that year the reset staff was the BOYS basketball team......Oh well, at least the wives were happy.

 

The matches were quite successful.  Set-up and tear-down were done by a hired crew.

 

If you wanted to help reset, it was quite welcome, but not required.  I've been to couple of matches where competitor reset was NOT allowed, but most have no problem with extra volunteer help.

 

Nolan

[rowdyb]

12 hours ago, Nolan said:

I remember the good ole days, yeah right!  The range in Norco, Ca. used to host some major matches that were 'staff' reset.  The first year the 'reset staff' was a local high school girls basketball team.  Southern Cal in the summer time, oh my!  The reset staff was paid a small wage and got all the brass to resell to the shooters.  The line to buy back brass was quite long. LOL!

 

Word spread and the next year the match sold out almost immediately....that year the reset staff was the BOYS basketball team......Oh well, at least the wives were happy.

 

The matches were quite successful.  Set-up and tear-down were done by a hired crew.

 

If you wanted to help reset, it was quite welcome, but not required.  I've been to couple of matches where competitor reset was NOT allowed, but most have no problem with extra volunteer help.

 

Nolan

My first uspsa experiences were Pala and Norco so I started shooting matches where there was paid crews to set up and tear down even the local matches. (Though not reset at a local) So my initial exposure was that you don't need to set up or tear down. It's amazing what a well run club can do with the right people and mindset.

[scroadkill]

Im luckily stuck in the middle of SC/NC/GA and all are staff reset on for their sectionals.. I RO for the SC.. shoot free on  friday with staff with everyone helping reset, and then I work saturday and sunday.. both being 1/2 day format. Pay is shoot for free, plus like $150-$160ish for the match. I look at it as my duty to my section.

Then I shoot GA/NC as just a shooter.. and as an older shooter it is fantastic being able to just shoot, and focus on just shooting. start at 8, done by noon. 10 stages and done.  absolutely puts NATs in frost proof to shame in how to treat your customers.

Staff per stage is like 4-6. main RO to run shooters, main tablet guy to keep the tablet and queue up next shooter.. and 2-4 ROs to reset the stage depending on complexity.

2021 we clocked it and from unload show clear to the next shooter in the box ready to make ready at under 35 seconds - with a stomp box and two movers.. the one with the 4 rounds on the drop turn and unpleasant low port wall for all of you who may have shot the stage. It was like a nascar pit crew - and got written up favorably in the uspsa mag a few months ago. We could cycle an 8 man squad through in c. 15-20 minutes including the briefing and 5 minute walkthrough . And heard nothing but complements the entire match..

We had one guy (POPSQUEST on youtube) to volunteered to reset the stomp box and drop turn all match for consistency.. and all ROs reset their assigned targets and check their hardcover. here is his video on the topic

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by scroadkill
clarity

[Dirty_J]

The Gator Classic this year had the local 4H shooting club out to help with reset. Tip jar out and even had a way for folks to donate electronically. 
 

Smart MD’s will find a way. 

[barry]

Biggest problem is I don't remember the last major i've shot and didn't at least have to get at least one call overturned by asking for an overlay.