Staff reset

[motosapiens]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:14 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

It would be pretty stage dependent I think. But 3 guys can get a lot done. One calling scores, one on the tablet, on right behind them with a paster gun. One guy with a paster gun can damn near keep up with the scoring, I know because I've done it as a competitor.

<snip>

 

The way we do it with 6-8 of the shooters on the squad going down and randomly resetting targets is so inefficient and inevitably leads to some reshoots for targets either not reset or pasted before they were scored etc. Staff reset pretty much eliminates that stuff from what I've seen. 

 

if you have all paper targets, reset is pretty quick and easy. 1-2 people can do it.... OTOH, it's also pretty quick and easy for the competitors; 1-2 people can do it.

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

if you have all paper targets, reset is pretty quick and easy. 1-2 people can do it.... OTOH, it's also pretty quick and easy for the competitors; 1-2 people can do it.

 

That is true kind of. Typically if only 1-2 competitors are resetting I hear RO's yelling for people to help. This leads to everyone getting up and walking down to paste 1 target or even just walk around and do nothing because the stage is small and easy to reset. It's so horrible inefficient. But you have to look busy all day.

 

I heard one of the sectionals I didn't attend was experimenting with having the last two shooters reset. So you would shoot, reset twice then hand off the pasters. This seems like it could be a nice middle ground where everyone gets a little time to rest, everyone puts in less steps and everyone has to help and we don't need staff reset.

 

But, I think if you just try that at a match the staff will be yelling pasters all day long with they see 10 people sitting on their asses and 2 people pasting. 

[Racinready300ex]

Ever shoot a standards stage with a 12 man squad and 3 staff so you have 15 people walking down to paste 3 targets? It's an amazing waste of time and energy. 

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That is true kind of. Typically if only 1-2 competitors are resetting I hear RO's yelling for people to help. This leads to everyone getting up and walking down to paste 1 target or even just walk around and do nothing because the stage is small and easy to reset. It's so horrible inefficient. But you have to look busy all day.

 

 

our stage at CO nats only had 6 paper targets. I told the shooters as long as 1-2 people pasted, everything would be groovy (and it was). I usually pasted the furthest 2 targets since I was down there scoring them anyway. I asked them to focus more on the other stage in our bay which had more targets and some steel.

[Joe4d]

On 12/20/2022 at 7:14 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

It would be pretty stage dependent I think. But 3 guys can get a lot done. One calling scores, one on the tablet, on right behind them with a paster gun. One guy with a paster gun can damn near keep up with the scoring, I know because I've done it as a competitor. Once they call the last target the timer RO can paste that with a paster gun and work back towards the guy coming behind them. Having a 4th guy would hurt, especially if you have steel or activators. Once everyone has a job and knows exactly what targets they reset you can get really efficient with less people. 

 

I've been to area matches with 4 or more guys working the stage. When resetting they typically watch and make sure you get everything and yell at you if the squad isn't resetting fast enough. 

 

The way we do it with 6-8 of the shooters on the squad going down and randomly resetting targets is so inefficient and inevitably leads to some reshoots for targets either not reset or pasted before they were scored etc. Staff reset pretty much eliminates that stuff from what I've seen. 

no way in Hades I would RO or CRO and paste and reset with only 2 other guys..
Having 3 you get an RO and a Scorekeeper and someone in the shade dealing with penalties or waiting on RM or whatever else needs to be done while the other 2 keep things moving. and ALSO a break in the shade, so the third guy can rotate out and it is still a long tough day. 
You want a good RO or an exhausted one ?

Sure 3 could do it... once,, But the same 3 all day for 12 squads without a break ? Good luck with that.

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

no way in Hades I would RO or CRO and paste and reset with only 2 other guys..
Having 3 you get an RO and a Scorekeeper and someone in the shade dealing with penalties or waiting on RM or whatever else needs to be done while the other 2 keep things moving. and ALSO a break in the shade, so the third guy can rotate out and it is still a long tough day. 
You want a good RO or an exhausted one ?

Sure 3 could do it... once,, But the same 3 all day for 12 squads without a break ? Good luck with that.

 

It would certainly need to vary by stage. Most matches I go to have more than 3 without staff reset that was just a example. You certainly don't need to double the staff as has been implied in this thread.  

 

It'd be helpful if someone who runs these matches could chime in. There are several staff reset matches down in Area 6. I'm not in that area so I've only shot 2 of them in the past. I don't recall seeing anymore staff per stage then I do when competitors reset the entry fee wasn't any higher. I did notice every stage had more than one paster gun running. I don't know how they pull it off, but it seems to be working well for them. Last year I skipped our Area match and went to A6 instead, probably doing that again this year. 

 

[scroadkill]

33 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

no way in Hades I would RO or CRO and paste and reset with only 2 other guys..
Having 3 you get an RO and a Scorekeeper and someone in the shade dealing with penalties or waiting on RM or whatever else needs to be done while the other 2 keep things moving. and ALSO a break in the shade, so the third guy can rotate out and it is still a long tough day. 
You want a good RO or an exhausted one ?

Sure 3 could do it... once,, But the same 3 all day for 12 squads without a break ? Good luck with that.

4 minimum.. and you get a breaks during squad walkthoughs..  

[Joe4d]

8 minutes ago, scroadkill said:

4 minimum.. and you get a breaks during squad walkthoughs..  

wow, thats awful generous of you...
keep in mind your RO and CRO's are probably volunteers not paid employees unless things have really changed.
I think 1 year was either Area 8 or VA/MD section that it was 100 degrees and humid. Seems I got half a hotel room a sandwich and a pretty nice fancy shooting shirt. Getting out of bed on Sunday was tough...  In hindsight ? I Today I would take a good hard look at the match finances before I would agree to work for free.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

wow, thats awful generous of you...
keep in mind your RO and CRO's are probably volunteers not paid employees unless things have really changed.
I think 1 year was either Area 8 or VA/MD section that it was 100 degrees and humid. Seems I got half a hotel room a sandwich and a pretty nice fancy shooting shirt. Getting out of bed on Sunday was tough...  In hindsight ? I Today I would take a good hard look at the match finances before I would agree to work for free.

 

 

 

Competitors don't really get a break unless there is a back up somewhere or a hard stop lunch. 

 

The years I worked Area 8 staff got to shoot for free, hotel was covered but you had to share a room. You got a match jersey maybe 2 I don't remember now. Lunch everyday from Southern Bobby-Q. The day you shot you got a prize from the competitor prize table. Then there was a staff dinner with a staff prize table (I made sure staff had good stuff) and typically a small gift of some sort. I was the sponsor coordinator, so my job was about 10 months of work, but I didn't have as much to once the match go going. Although occasionally I'd get pulled to go help reset stages that we're falling behind. 

 

If I had the time I used to, I'd volunteer as a dedicated resetter, s#!t that'd be easy in comparison. Maybe when the kid gets bigger, if he wants to shoot we might have to work some matches. That'll be a few years down the road. 

[llamasabound]

The MD didn’t take me up on it, but I have an area match mocked up with staff reset on specific stages. I’ve done so impromptu for previous majors — if there’s a backup, two extra staff to speed along reset can help clear it, bonus points if they are certified ROs who can score while resetting. I don’t think staff reset has to be all or nothing.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, llamasabound said:

The MD didn’t take me up on it, but I have an area match mocked up with staff reset on specific stages. I’ve done so impromptu for previous majors — if there’s a backup, two extra staff to speed along reset can help clear it, bonus points if they are certified ROs who can score while resetting. I don’t think staff reset has to be all or nothing.

 

It's amazing what that can accomplish on a stage that's backed up. 

 

One year at a Area match a stage fell behind, probably a REF or similar. The MD pulled me to go down there and help, all I did was reset all the steel. The guys working the stage we're pasting. Maybe a squad and a half they were caught up and back on schedule and waiting for the next squad. Then I went back to my job. 

 

That match was 13-14 stages in one day. If one falls behind it could be a disaster really. 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

no way in Hades I would RO or CRO and paste and reset with only 2 other guys..
Having 3 you get an RO and a Scorekeeper and someone in the shade dealing with penalties or waiting on RM or whatever else needs to be done.

our 3rd RO was always watching the shooter from the right side of the stage, so that we always had multiple sets of eyes in case of penalties or disputes. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Having 3 you get an RO and a Scorekeeper and someone in the shade dealing with penalties or waiting on RM or whatever else needs to be done while the other 2 keep things moving.

 

I read the underlined part and searched my memory for all the major and club matches I've worked and not once do I remember someone being so damned busy with "dealing with penalties or waiting on RM" that he could do nothing else.

 

Every time we've needed the RM on a stage someone got on the radio, called him, and then we went all back to work until he drove up.

 

 

[motosapiens]

It would be interesting to try a staff reset match someday, and see how it works, even tho I don't in any way see it as beneficial thing (maybe when I get old I'll change my mind). Some thoughts I have on the matter:

 

1. It has to be more expensive. There is no way around that. you might be able to get away with 1 extra staff on a small standards-type stage, but field courses will need 2-3, so that's at least a 50% increase in staff costs. That doesn't come out of thin air.

 

2. I have shot alot of matches, and I have RO'd even more major matches. I am typically more physically and mentally tired after working a match than after shooting one (and resetting), but most of my experience is in half-day matches, where squads only shoot 6-7 stages in the morning or afternoon, but the staff is there for the whole day (and the next day, and the day after that). The more tired and distracted the RO's are, the more likely stuff is to go wrong, and the more likely your competitors are to get away with a penalty that didn't get called.

 

3. Unless I get unlucky and get stuck on a squad of lazy douches, I don't really see resetting as something annoying, or tiring, or even worth noticing. It goes quick if you're squadded with normal human beings. In my experience as an RO/CRO at Nats and other majors, 80-90% of the squads are normal human beings that get the reset done quickly with minimal muss and fuss. Every now and then, even a squad of normal people will drop the ball when 2 people start talking to a spectator friend, one guy breaks a gun, and 1 guy goes to the porta-potty, but it's typically fairly rare that I have to give a nudge to a squad that isn't adequately resetting. Of course my RO's and I always carry pasters, and will typically help out if needed.... I just don't want to be resetting steel all day for 3 straight days now that I'm past 60.

[RJH]

I have always wanted to try the: "shoot, then reset for the next 2 or 3" system 

 

Seems like it would be really effective. But when mentioned, generally 1 or 2 people are interested and everyone else is happy to walk out and paste one target for 10 shooters. I don't know how to make it happen other than everyone being instructed to tape that way in the match book/shooters meeting 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

It would be interesting to try a staff reset match someday, and see how it works, even tho I don't in any way see it as beneficial thing (maybe when I get old I'll change my mind). Some thoughts I have on the matter:

 

1. It has to be more expensive. There is no way around that. you might be able to get away with 1 extra staff on a small standards-type stage, but field courses will need 2-3, so that's at least a 50% increase in staff costs. That doesn't come out of thin air.

 

2. I have shot alot of matches, and I have RO'd even more major matches. I am typically more physically and mentally tired after working a match than after shooting one (and resetting), but most of my experience is in half-day matches, where squads only shoot 6-7 stages in the morning or afternoon, but the staff is there for the whole day (and the next day, and the day after that). The more tired and distracted the RO's are, the more likely stuff is to go wrong, and the more likely your competitors are to get away with a penalty that didn't get called.

 

3. Unless I get unlucky and get stuck on a squad of lazy douches, I don't really see resetting as something annoying, or tiring, or even worth noticing. It goes quick if you're squadded with normal human beings. In my experience as an RO/CRO at Nats and other majors, 80-90% of the squads are normal human beings that get the reset done quickly with minimal muss and fuss. Every now and then, even a squad of normal people will drop the ball when 2 people start talking to a spectator friend, one guy breaks a gun, and 1 guy goes to the porta-potty, but it's typically fairly rare that I have to give a nudge to a squad that isn't adequately resetting. Of course my RO's and I always carry pasters, and will typically help out if needed.... I just don't want to be resetting steel all day for 3 straight days now that I'm past 60.

I wonder if some of the difference is you get to shoot half day matches.  I've only shot that at nationals.  Every match in this area is 10+ stages in one day.  

 

And obviously the standard tough guy stuff .  

[Joe4d]

6 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I read the underlined part and searched my memory for all the major and club matches I've worked and not once do I remember someone being so damned busy with "dealing with penalties or waiting on RM" that he could do nothing else.

 

Every time we've needed the RM on a stage someone got on the radio, called him, and then we went all back to work until he drove up.

 

 

 never pulled a target for a score dispute,? never DQ'd anyone,?,, never need to piss ?  things happen.  With 3 RO's 2 can keep things moving. If those 3 guys were also resetting ? Glad it works for you.. As mentioned I wouldnt do it.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Joe4d

[scroadkill]

18 hours ago, Joe4d said:

wow, thats awful generous of you...
keep in mind your RO and CRO's are probably volunteers not paid employees unless things have really changed.
I think 1 year was either Area 8 or VA/MD section that it was 100 degrees and humid. Seems I got half a hotel room a sandwich and a pretty nice fancy shooting shirt. Getting out of bed on Sunday was tough...  In hindsight ? I Today I would take a good hard look at the match finances before I would agree to work for free.

 

 

well.. NO one working there does it for money... we do it because without us it wouldn't happen - and we benefit from the other sections in our area doing the same allowing us to just shoot. It is a great deal IMO. well worth the little bit of extra effort. and the entry fees haven't gone up for staff reset. 

free entry + c. $120-$180 is plenty to work for 2 days. 

hell, I sacrifice a full day of work once a month to set up for my local for a $15 credit I didnt need.. lol. Its just what you do - rain, shine, heat, suck it up buttercup. 

Its the MD's that REALLY put in the time that deserve the praise.

[Cbritt]

I live in area 6 where this is prevalent. I have shot & worked several matches within the area. As staff, it kinda sucks,  but I knew that going in. There are always enough staff to where no one is “overworked” we rotate the duties. There is a compensation package (not much, but it pays the hotel & shoot for free), and a separate prize table for RO’s. I do this because I love the sport and it’s my way to give back while I can. 
As a shooter, it’s awesome. Usually comes along with small squads, so you shoot 9-12 stages in 1/2 day. No re-shoots because the guys buddy pasted a target, etc. all you have to focus on is shooting. That is nice. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, scroadkill said:

hell, I sacrifice a full day of work once a month to set up for my local for a $15 credit I didnt need.. lol. 

wow. I don't. I just show up 20 mins early (along with the MD and the other stage designers), and we set up the match in an hour with everyone's help, then shoot.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Cbritt said:

As a shooter, it’s awesome. Usually comes along with small squads, so you shoot 9-12 stages in 1/2 day. 

 

that doesn't sound bad. Do you feel like you always have enough time to prepare for each stage? I suppose if you are shooting the main match, you are probably there the day before anyway.

[cudaman]

Found what I was looking for.. Give this a read...  If you know Gary.. You know...

 

Staff Reset: A Better System for Everyone

By Gary Byerly

Pasters! How many times have we all heard or yelled that?

Imagine you are competing at a major match and the stage needs to be reset. But you are about to shoot and are trying to focus on visualization. Or perhaps you just shot and have magazines to clean and reload. Regardless of the situation, you are expected to interrupt your process and get to work. This is not conducive to putting forth your best shooting performance.

Conversely, imagine that you are a working a major match. You urge competitors to reset the stage and watch as they disorderly traverse the range, pasting targets and painting steel with little gusto. As the next competitor shoots, you have a range equipment malfunction due to an activator that was improperly reset. Or perchance a target did not get pasted which prevents you from being able to issue a score. In either case a reshoot is now necessary. This is not favorable to running your stage efficiently.

There is a better system that speeds up the match, improves competitive equity, eliminates inconsistency, and decreases effort for everyone. That system is staff reset.

If you have ever visited a Chick-Fil-A, you have witnessed a motivated and coordinated workforce. Tasks are assigned to employees and carried out repetitively with precision. Now imagine if those employees changed jobs every three minutes. Chaos ensues and your chicken sandwich is in jeopardy.

Match staff can be assigned specific tasks for their stage and develop an effective rhythm as they carry out those tasks cyclically. The result is a consistent reset that is significantly faster from buzzer to buzzer. Additionally, the staff can proactively address potential problems which will nearly eliminate the need for reshoots.

When competitors reset however, they are not assigned a specific task. Rather, they head down range with no clear plan and fumble through the stage looking for targets to paste. As the squad progresses, the people down range are constantly in flux. For example, the competitor that painted the poppers last time is now on deck. This time around another shooter will need to recognize and pick up that responsibility. This uncoordinated effort results in wasted time and a high probability of an improperly set stage.

I recently served as a CRO at the 2020 Carolina Classic where reset was handled entirely by staff. I was placed in charge of a 32 round long course with four additional staff. Two of the staff were certified RO’s. My stage crew and I identified reset requirements and evenly distributed assignments. I personally ran every shooter Saturday and Sunday. I followed this procedure: Verify the stage is clear and issue range commands. Follow the shooter through the stage. Clear the range and relay time to score keeper. Reset and paint four pepper poppers. Return to start position. Repeat.

What I did not do is score any targets or verify that they had been pasted. There was no need because my crew was doing that. With the aid of paster guns, they had 14 targets scored and pasted in the time it took me to reset four poppers. I would like to add that we rain bagged targets three times on Saturday with negligible loss in performance. Overall, our stage ran on schedule and had no issues or reshoots during the match. Efficient division of labor made this possible

As a competitor, I would rather shoot a match with staff reset so I can focus on shooting. As a RO, I would rather work a match with staff reset so I can provide a quality match experience for competitors with less effort and time spent.

[OPENB]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:34 PM, Racinready300ex said:

Anyone ever end up on the squad from hell?  I shot Area 8 once, there was one "super squad" guy to not name names. Plus 2 or 3 juniors and their dad. It's been a while. It was a regular occurrence at that match to see the juniors bugging the pro while dad was standing their listening. That alone tied up half our squad not resetting. There were times during the day me and my wife were the only ones resetting the stage while she was on deck and I was in the hole. 

 

I'll avoid a squad with more than one junior or a family like the plague now. You end up on the wrong squad and you're in for a long s#!tty day. 

I was at a sectional one year, and signed up late, so had to shoot with the RO's the day before the main match. I got the feeling after the first shooter on the first stage that the attitude was "i'm gonna be here all weekend, I ain't doing !@#$ until tomorrow". Made for a long day, and I avoid RO days now.

[scroadkill]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

..

Ill speak for Chris.. RE Is there enough time to prepare for each stage in a staff reset match?

sure.. if shooting in the AM, then walk stages the day before.
or if shooting in the afternoon, then during the morning session.
either way find an empty bay and ask the RO if you can walk the stage. Do not activate anything.
Once a squad starts to show up get off the stage immediately.

You can also watch other shooters run their plans.. and borrow the best.

anyway you slice it it doesn't have anything to do with how the stages are reset.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

18 hours ago, Joe4d said:

 never pulled a target for a score dispute,? never DQ'd anyone,?,, never need to piss ?  things happen.  With 3 RO's 2 can keep things moving. If those 3 guys were also resetting ? Glad it works for you.. As mentioned I wouldnt do it.

 

 

It's par for the course and not surprising that the majority of people here crapping on the idea of staff reset matches have never shot one or worked one.

 

Kinda hard to take that angle seriously.