Staff reset

[Joe4d]

On 12/26/2022 at 4:33 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Then you went to some piss poor matches.

 

I have yet to shoot a match on staff day that wasn't identical to what the rest of the competitors shot a day or two later.

ah yeh, kinda over your ignorant ahole attitude,,, peace out welcome to the ignore list..  Been here since the beginning,, Think I have 3 folks,, 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Joe4d

[Dirty_J]

May not like his attitude… doesn’t make him wrong though. 
 

If you shot a staff match that differed in anyway from the competitor match… that MD and RM need to be run out of the sport. Who needs competitive equity? Amiright?  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

 Been here since the beginning

 

Don't care.  Get back in the game so you can talk from a position of knowledge again.

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

May not like his attitude… doesn’t make him wrong though. 
 

If you shot a staff match that differed in anyway from the competitor match… that MD and RM need to be run out of the sport. Who needs competitive equity? Amiright?  

On 12/26/2022 at 3:42 PM, Joe4d said:

The staff matches I can recall shooting, were in no way shape or form the same match as the regular match. I dont recall if they were scored with the main match or not. But it shouldnt have been. You are correct its not the same match.

Read much ? amiright ?   

[Dirty_J]

36 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Read much ? amiright ?   

I do read much. And the staff is supposed to shoot and be scored identically to the competitor  match.
 

Non-staff competitors do shoot on staff day… regularly. Myself included. Maybe they wanna be home for the weekend with the kids… maybe they’re doubling-up majors in one weekend. I know I’ve done both of the above. 
 

And as for the actual staff… what’s the point of shooting the match for free if your score isn’t part of the actual match standings? Doesn’t make any sense. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dirty_J

[vluc]

7 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

I do read much. And the staff is supposed to shoot and be scored identically to the competitor  match.
 

Non-staff competitors do shoot on staff day… regularly. Myself included. Maybe they wanna be home for the weekend with the kids… maybe they’re doubling-up majors in one weekend. I know I’ve done both of the above. 
 

And as for the actual staff… what’s the point of shooting the match for free if your score isn’t part of the actual match standings? Doesn’t make any sense. 

 

I have worked 28 Majors so far and in every one of them I have been a part of the match standings and the match results. Won some guns as well. 

[rowdyb]

When I worked for Automatic Accuracy and we would be a match sponsor we would go and shoot the staff day and then be free to work our table during the main match. I absolutely loathe staff day and would never recommend it.

[joseywales]

FWIW...somewhere in the 2003-2005 timeframe, the Area 4 match had a staff day that was an abbreviated 6-stage match with a separate results and separate prize table.  All subsequent majors that I worked (7 or 8), the staff day was the exact match as competitor days, with staff included in the results & prize table.

[waktasz]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

When I worked for Automatic Accuracy and we would be a match sponsor we would go and shoot the staff day and then be free to work our table during the main match. I absolutely loathe staff day and would never recommend it.

 

I wonder if you hate it for the same reason I do...the only days I've shot staff day was as a CRO. What a waste of my "prime". lol

[RJH]

I'm kind of wondering if when he said that the staff match was not the same, what he was getting at was you no longer have dedicated ro's, and you generally do way more work than you do as a shooter on the normal match day, and that ends up dragging your match performance down. I know when I work a match by the end of 10 or 12 stages on staff day my give a s*** is pretty well gone. But when I just shoot as a competitor and I have way less to think about and can focus on only the shooting portion of the match my match performance seems to be  better

[pskys2]

If an MD can get the ro's to do it great, allows more fraternization among those not working.  But you need more than the usual number of ro's.  Why have squads though?

I have been in the sport as ro. MD, section coordinator, worker and competitor since 1978 and I wouldn't work one.  And every one that claimed to be staff reset ended up needing competitors help, even sc matches.

Would love to shoot them though.

Edited December 28, 2022 by pskys2

[Johnny_Chimpo]

53 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 And every one that claimed to be staff reset ended up needing competitors help

 

Which USPSA match with staff reset needed competitors to help?

 

The people in Area 6, where staff reset majors seem to be most numerous, seem to love them.

[JFlowers]

Only remember Staff Reset going bad, once.

 

About 25 years ago, I was a green shooter and volunteered to staff an Area Match.  It rained heavily and the match was a swamp.  A call by the RO was overturned and the two ROs walked off in protest.  Leaving me alone on the stage.  Not an RO, not an experienced shooter even at that time.  The MD found another CRO and the two of us busted our humps to get all the shooters through the stage, just the two of us on a large field stage.  But we did it.  Really made me appreciate the job "Staff" does.

 

"And every one that claimed to be staff reset ended up needing competitors help, even sc matches." No, I have run stages with a good crew at SC State and not needed any competitor help.  Didn't turn it down, but didn't need it.  The local SASS club worked the match as help and to get their "work day" credits.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, JFlowers said:

Only remember Staff Reset going bad, once.

 

About 25 years ago, I was a green shooter and volunteered to staff an Area Match.  It rained heavily and the match was a swamp.  A call by the RO was overturned and the two ROs walked off in protest.  Leaving me alone on the stage.  Not an RO, not an experienced shooter even at that time.  The MD found another CRO and the two of us busted our humps to get all the shooters through the stage, just the two of us on a large field stage.  But we did it.  Really made me appreciate the job "Staff" does.

 

 

You and two ROs were pasting/resetting every target?  And then did it with just one more guy after the first two left?

 

I ask because from what I've read it seems staff reset matches have more people working a stage.  Like the usual CRO/RO/RO plus a few more helpers to paste and reset.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

I'm kind of wondering if when he said that the staff match was not the same, what he was getting at was you no longer have dedicated ro's, and you generally do way more work than you do as a shooter on the normal match day, and that ends up dragging your match performance down. I know when I work a match by the end of 10 or 12 stages on staff day my give a s*** is pretty well gone. But when I just shoot as a competitor and I have way less to think about and can focus on only the shooting portion of the match my match performance seems to be  better

pretty much,   Technically the same but not the same,, way longer, more delays, popper calibration.. REF's ,, sure you get a reshoot, but its more frequent, as I mentioned. Getting props perfectly reset , new people having to relearn that on each squad vs a dedicated staff.  A Too many chiefs not enough indians,, Everyone is an RO and of course this leads to discussions , Things getting tweaked before the main crowd.. 
 I CRO'd one year at area 8,, and yes been awhile.. It was 100 degrees and humid.. We worked till lunchtime on final setup then shot... Last stage it was nearly dark . 
Also did quite a few VA/MD sectionals which were on par with Area matches.  Pretty similar setup.. Honestly I dont recall if they were scored with main match.. I also mentioned I didnt really care. 
As mentioned I could RO or I could try to do my best at a match. Cant do both.. But I had already figured that out. So no big whoop.  It was a mini cool vacation..  was a Hooters across from the hotel and lots of shooters to hang with and rehydrate.

Another sport IDPA,,, but I shot state match multiple times on that as well as well as worked it.. That one was scored,, and the one time I shot it from out of town NOT staff I never went back becasue I realized how blatently unfair the match was.  They were doing secret stages,,, 5 minute walk through then turn out lights,, Total blackness..  Again not the same match for staff and not staff but in the opposite direction... If you wernt staff you didnt have a prayer.

[71Commander]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:40 PM, Sarge said:

I hope staff reset doesn’t become normalized. 

Great for the shooter. Just another burden for an overworked, undermanned staff.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, 71Commander said:

Great for the shooter. Just another burden for an overworked, undermanned staff.

 

Staff reset matches have..............more staff.

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Staff reset matches have..............more staff.

Hence way more expense. If they shoot for free subtract match fees from budget. Then add food, hotel, shirts etc.

Now, if you can find 30-35 people who live close and don’t shoot or eat it might work.

 I just know I would not work a match as CRO/RO and do reset as well. No way.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

41 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hence way more expense. If they shoot for free subtract match fees from budget. Then add food, hotel, shirts etc.

Now, if you can find 30-35 people who live close and don’t shoot or eat it might work.

 I just know I would not work a match as CRO/RO and do reset as well. No way.

 

No doubt it's more expensive.  This year's Buckeye Blast is staff reset and $200, compared to last year which was around $50 cheaper.

 

As far as staffing goes, I'm gonna work the Blast so I will find out first hand if it's staffed appropriately.  It's 13 stages plus chrono and there are 59 staff slots (by my count in PS).  If you assign two to chrono that leaves an average of 4.3 staff per stage.  Seems light to me but I'm reserving judgement until I see how it goes.

 

Some places in A6 have found a way to make it work while keeping staff happy enough to get volunteers for more than one year.  So it can be done successfully. 

[71Commander]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Hence way more expense. If they shoot for free subtract match fees from budget. Then add food, hotel, shirts etc.

Now, if you can find 30-35 people who live close and don’t shoot or eat it might work.

 I just know I would not work a match as CRO/RO and do reset as well. No way.

Especially with the 2 day shoots for staff and three day shoots for competitors. Your butt would be dragging after five days. If you're working a back to back, hope you're under 40.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, 71Commander said:

Especially with the 2 day shoots for staff and three day shoots for competitors. Your butt would be dragging after five days. If you're working a back to back, hope you're under 40.

 

OK, then don't volunteer.  Others will.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[shred]

Get different staff to reset versus RO.  Not a lot of need for skill-set overlap there.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

Just now, shred said:

Get different staff to reset versus RO. 

 

That's exactly what Cardinal Shooting Center is doing for both the OH southern section match and CO and Low Cap nationals.

 

A lot of the staff is going to be non-ROs who will handle the majority of reset tasks leaving the CRO and ROs to manage the stage.

[scroadkill]

10 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

A lot of the staff is going to be non-ROs who will handle the majority of reset tasks leaving the CRO and ROs to manage the stage.

Having helped RO at two staff reset matches we had our 5 man staff arranged into 3 assistant ROs that would reset targets with each assigned to a zone, a scorer and a tablet guy.  The scorer and tablet guys were not needed to reset.  At the last one our turn around time per shooter from range is clear to all ROs back and the next shooter being called to the start position was 35-38 seconds unless there was discussion on a perf hit.. and thats with a stomp box and two movers.

running the shooters is no-less difficult/work than resetting... and the CRO gets the pleasure of DQing people / calling the RM to dispute things etc. I'de much rather be an indian.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by scroadkill

[rowdyb]

Mandate a 1:1 work credit system for majors. You can only shoot as many as you work. And not to be awarded concurrently. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by rowdyb