Staff reset

[Balakay]

6 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

It's par for the course and not surprising that the majority of people here crapping on the idea of staff reset matches have never shot one or worked one.

 

Kinda hard to take that angle seriously.

 

I know a lot of shooters who would never consider shooting a major match again without staff reset.   If anyone still believes that big matches like area matches are not making money already, you have not been paying attention.

 

 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Balakay said:

If anyone still believes that big matches like area matches are not making money already, you have not been paying attention.

 

 

 

can you be more specific about this? How much money is being made at an area match, and what happens to it? Are the MD's getting rich?

 

[Balakay]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

can you be more specific about this? How much money is being made at an area match, and what happens to it? Are the MD's getting rich?

 

ask for their financials.  I'll leave it at that

[Balakay]

Just now, Balakay said:

ask for their financials.  I'll leave it at that

and even if they weren't, raise the price 25$ x 300 shooters and you have a 7500$ pasting fund.  You can keep the cotton T-shirt and mediocre BBQ.  

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, Balakay said:

ask for their financials.  I'll leave it at that

I ask because I was on the BOD at a club that put on an area match recently, so I looked at the financials. The MD was required by uspsa to spend pretty much *all* the money on the match and the infrastructure upgrades. There was literally zero money left over. For sure the MD isn't driving a new car.

[Dirty_J]

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I ask because I was on the BOD at a club that put on an area match recently, so I looked at the financials. The MD was required by uspsa to spend pretty much *all* the money on the match and the infrastructure upgrades. There was literally zero money left over. For sure the MD isn't driving a new car.

So you pay your pals out cash money for various services and boooom. The “club” makes zero money. Comes out shiny and clean on the other side. 

[Lightj75]

Staff reset is the way to go and I have no problem paying extra for it. I'm one of the people who overzealously pastes and ends up pasting alot of the targets because it's faster than waiting on someone else. Not having to worry about it gives me extra time to focus and shoot at major matches and I really appreciate it. Also there is far less reshoots on activator stages because someone set it up wrong. 

[Boomstick303]

14 hours ago, Balakay said:

and even if they weren't, raise the price 25$ x 300 shooters and you have a 7500$ pasting fund.  You can keep the cotton T-shirt and mediocre BBQ.  

 

Have you ever Ran a Level II match or up?

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

So you pay your pals out cash money for various services and boooom. The “club” makes zero money. Comes out shiny and clean on the other side. 

That's a pretty strong accusation. Is that how you did it when you ran major matches?

 

Or are you one of those people who doesn't contribute, and only attacks others who do contribute......?

[ddc]

17 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

So you pay your pals out cash money for various services and boooom. The “club” makes zero money. Comes out shiny and clean on the other side. 

 

wow

[Joe4d]

Well with shooter reset and volunteer officials and staff just seemed like folks shooting together.. 
This staff reset ? Now you are into Business owner (MD) employees, and customers.
As I have watched these level II and up entry fees go to insane levels for what shooters are getting, you cant be upset people are asking questions about the money. 
I used to shoot at a fairly good club, monthly 6-7 pretty decent stages for $25...  Go to the same club shoot a LII or 3,,, shoot basically two matches worth of stages but suddenly the entry fee is over 10 times ? For ? as mentioned a Tshirt and a lunch  you cant trust ?
Cant blame folks for asking questions,, especially if you want them to work for free all weekend. 
Gonna have a customer based business model, Id probably want an Employee based compensation model to RO or CRO,, and as mentioned I wouldnt do it with only 3 adults.
Also do not misread this.. Not knocking staff reset,, if the model works for your matches and are filling up good for you. 
 

[Dirty_J]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

That's a pretty strong accusation. Is that how you did it when you ran major matches?

 

Or are you one of those people who doesn't contribute, and only attacks others who do contribute......?

If I were accusing… I’d name names. I’m just saying if the policy is “not for profit”… there are many ways to meet that requirement. Look at any of your largest non-profit corporations…

 

I do not run matches… though I happily commit time to build stages at my local club match and volunteer to staff majors in my vicinity. 
 

A clubs first year running a major.. there ain’t much money to be made. Lots of props, steel and such to buy. But when it’s your 2nd or 3rd year at the same club… the match expenditures aren’t as significant. And the entry fees certainly aren’t going down anywhere. 
 

If you’ve got a better explanation of major match MD’s not profiting (directly or indirectly) from running a 400 person match at $250 a head.. I’m happy to listen.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Dirty_J

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

If you’ve got a better explanation of major match MD’s not profiting (directly or indirectly) from running a 400 person match at $250 a head.. I’m happy to listen.

 

It sounds like you don't know very much about running a match, and all the various expenditures, and you are perhaps just speaking out your azz.

 

I happen to have the original budget proposal for a 2021 area match in my email. By far the biggest single expenditure is staff (hotels, food, etc...). This is about 2/5 of the total entry fees ($200 entry). Porta-potty rentals, dumpster emptying, targets, pasters, paint, construction and prop materials, etc.... adds up pretty quickly. Everything is going to established businesses (like lowes, or shooters connection), often at a discounted rate.

 

The range ended up with a $5000 donation ($12.50/shooter) which doesn't seem outrageous to me given the inconvenience of shutting the range down for a week to the non uspsa shooting members. We use that money to put static steel targets in one of the pistol pits, and make improvements to the rifle line, among other things. We were also able to create additional parking and get gravel/roadbase down on it. We were able to stretch that money further by having a volunteer dozer operator for several days, so we only had the bill for the dozer rental/fuel and the actual gravel.

 

Bottom line; There is nothing in this budget that could possibly be construed as 'paying out your pals cash money'. In fact, the people involved in putting on the matches and running the club do so at a significant uncompensated cost of their own time and effort, but maybe they do things differently where you are.

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

I used to shoot at a fairly good club, monthly 6-7 pretty decent stages for $25...  Go to the same club shoot a LII or 3,,, shoot basically two matches worth of stages but suddenly the entry fee is over 10 times ? For ? as mentioned a Tshirt and a lunch  you cant trust ?

we only charge $15 for 6-stage match ($12 for club members), and we RO ourselves and have no prizes or lunch or anything.

 

If you think of a major match as just a local match with some more stages, you are missing the point. Pretty much everything takes more time and effort to get it sufficiently right for a major competition, starting with more solid and elaborate stage construction, RO's and RM, awards, raffle prizes, and so forth and so on. Perhaps none of that stuff means anything to you. If so, I would recommend just shooting local matches and being happy. for sure, good local matches are a bargain, and they certainly benefit down the road from the infrastructure that gets put together for a major. We continue to use all those props (without having to buy them), we finish off the extra paint and pasters, we make do with the normal weekly dumpster and porty-potty schedule.

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

If you think of a major match as just a local match with some more stages, you are missing the point. Pretty much everything takes more time and effort to get it sufficiently right for a major competition, starting with more solid and elaborate stage construction, RO's and RM, awards, raffle prizes, and so forth and so on. Perhaps none of that stuff means anything to you. If so, I would recommend just shooting local matches and being happy. for sure, good local matches are a bargain, and they certainly benefit down the road from the infrastructure that gets put together for a major. We continue to use all those props (without having to buy them), we finish off the extra paint and pasters, we make do with the normal weekly dumpster and porty-potty schedule.

 

 

 

Forum needs a like button

[konkapot]

Moto thanks for the quick run down on finances. $5000 donation to the range seems very reasonable. 

 

Everybody wins. Clean porta potties and the range gets to make some improvements. Good stuff. 

[mlmiller1]

I still have not seen any legitimate reasons for doing staff reset.  I sincerely disagree that it makes a fair & equitable match for all shooters.  About 5-10% of competitors at any match have an unfair disadvantage.   Not 1 of you folks that say staff reset is better for everyone has offered to staff reset for the staff shooters.  The staff always has to reset for themselves usually with smaller squads,  they have to shoot the entire match in less time than the regular competitors.  That is not equitable.  I am sure many of you are saying (perhaps laughing) to yourself "none of the r.o's are ever going to win a major match".  Probably true but we want a fair shot at doing the best we can on every stage & doing it in a fairly equitable way.  You make this staff reset for main match competitors but not for r.o.s, you have just given yourselves a huge advantage that r.o.s don't have.  Either you do part of the work or you are going to be doing it all.  Watching you "supershooters" is sort of interesting but it's definitely not a reward or worth all the work.  Many of the super competitors are great folks & I enjoy helping them & doing my part by r.o.ing but you folks that want me to shoot the match in shorter hours doing all our own reset & then putting our scores in with folks that don't do anything but shoot is not fair & separates "us" from "you" even more.  

  Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, just expressing my opinion.  It's a volunteer sport, not just for some but for every competitor.  

Edited December 26, 2022 by mlmiller1
Adjusted percentage numbers

[shred]

The way IPSC usually does it, there's separate 'reset' and 'RO' staffs.   The ROs score targets and run shooters.  The resetters do the grunt work pasting and setting.

 

Figure out what it costs to hire 3 teenagers per stage to show up and reset and there's your extra cost without overworking the ROs.

 

 

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

  I am sure many of you are saying (perhaps laughing) to yourself "none of the r.o's are ever going to win a major match". 

 

a. sometimes staff does OK. I have some trophies for major matches where I was staff, some in the division overall, some in the senior category. I've also seen many other RO's do pretty well.

 

b. there are often a handful of fairly elite competitors shooting with staff, so they can finish early and make it to another major match on the same weekend, or simply because the main match was filled up by the time non-residents were allowed to enter. Nils shot on my staff squad at A1 this year, and not only worked his butt off, but finished fairly well.

 

It is definitely not an advantage to shoot the staff match however. It varies from person to person, and the more experience you get at majors, the less of a disadvantage it is, but there is always a little less time to prepare, and rarely any opportunity to carefully observe mover sequences. You can learn alot from watching other good shooters on a complicated stage.

Edited December 26, 2022 by motosapiens

[Joe4d]

16 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

I still have not seen any legitimate reasons for doing staff reset.  I sincerely disagree that it makes a fair & equitable match for all shooters.  About 5-10% of competitors at any match have an unfair disadvantage.   Not 1 of you folks that say staff reset is better for everyone has offered to staff reset for the staff shooters.  The staff always has to reset for themselves usually with smaller squads,  they have to shoot the entire match in less time than the regular competitors.  That is not equitable.  I am sure many of you are saying (perhaps laughing) to yourself "none of the r.o's are ever going to win a major match".  Probably true but we want a fair shot at doing the best we can on every stage & doing it in a fairly equitable way.  You make this staff reset for main match competitors but not for r.o.s, you have just given yourselves a huge advantage that r.o.s don't have.  Either you do part of the work or you are going to be doing it all.  Watching you "supershooters" is sort of interesting but it's definitely not a reward or worth all the work.  Many of the super competitors are great folks & I enjoy helping them & doing my part by r.o.ing but you folks that want me to shoot the match in shorter hours doing all our own reset & then putting our scores in with folks that don't do anything but shoot is not fair & separates "us" from "you" even more.  

  Again, I am not trying to pick a fight, just expressing my opinion.  It's a volunteer sport, not just for some but for every competitor.  

At one time I decided I could either take a match serious,, or RO..  I wasnt capable of both.
The staff matches I can recall shooting, were in no way shape or form the same match as the regular match. I dont recall if they were scored with the main match or not. But it shouldnt have been. You are correct its not the same match.
Generally we are still tweaking stages.. I always figure the staff match was a dry run.  Which I was perfectly fine with.. Wasnt payign for it and was just part of the weekend.

[Dirty_J]

Still tweaking stages on staff day?
 

Maybe your first stage. And everyone shoots it the same… otherwise those stages should be tossed. Can’t be changing **** as the staff day goes on. 
 

A good MD will have several top level, local competitors come through to debug stages well before the first shots are ever fired.  
 

A few of the local major matches around here might have the MD and other admin staff shoot it on Thursday… and perhaps change something then… but they’re either shooting for no score or they’ll reshoot a stage that’s been modified due to some anomalies being corrected. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Dirty_J

[Johnny_Chimpo]

49 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

The staff matches I can recall shooting, were in no way shape or form the same match as the regular match. I dont recall if they were scored with the main match or not. But it shouldnt have been. You are correct its not the same match.
Generally we are still tweaking stages.. I always figure the staff match was a dry run.  Which I was perfectly fine with.. Wasnt payign for it and was just part of the weekend.

 

Then you went to some piss poor matches.

 

I have yet to shoot a match on staff day that wasn't identical to what the rest of the competitors shot a day or two later.

[motosapiens]

27 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I have yet to shoot a match on staff day that wasn't identical to what the rest of the competitors shot a day or two later.

 

Agreed. Every major I have worked, it has been a point of emphasis that the early match must be the exact same shooting challenge as the main match.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

22 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

I still have not seen any legitimate reasons for doing staff reset.

 

I thought you weren't interested in being staff for one of them.  Since that's obviously still the case, convincing you isn't necessary.

[vluc]

I may try one if given the chance.