Why expect shooters to teardown stages for FREE after they've PAID to participate in a match?

[MikeyScuba]

Nobody has mentioned panda shooters yet?

 

eats shoots and leaves?

 

you’re welcome.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, toothandnail said:

I agree with you OP, at my range, you show up, shoot, leave, no stage building, no tear down.
Shot a Multi gun a while back, every stage we were expected to pickup shotgun hulls, and everything but brass - which we did. Our last stage, NONE of the previous 9 squads picked up anything.
Since we were the last squad they wanted us to clean the stage and tear down.
NOPE . 
That was the RO's job to keep a clean stage, not up to the last squad to clean up every bodies mess for 2 days

Your range is in the very, very small minority

[SGT_Schultz]

35 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

You forgot to say "And stay off my lawn!"

 

I didn't get the impression the OP was a 'shoot and scoot' type, but I guess it is just politically incorrect to ask a question about why or why not.

 

 

Go back and re read the OP. 

 

Better yet, let me help you by pointing out the statements that rub people the wrong way

 

Quote

If I PAY a fee and you don't use that money to PAY someone to setup and/or teardown, it's not my responsibility/ obligation to do it for FREE.

 

Quote

If the match is FREE, I will setup and teardown each and every stage.  If I am given a registration DISCOUNT to teardown, then I will do it.  But PAY to shoot, then teardown for FREE (especially when those who setup received a DISCOUNT)... NO. 

 

I bet he would get a difference response if he had simply just asked "why do some clubs offer incentives to setup but not for teardown" and kept the BS bluster and bravado editorial to himself.

[warpspeed]

I haven't shot at a lot of clubs but I can't ever remember being asked, let alone told, to tear down a stage when we were done.

 

I suppose I would if asked buts that just because it's the kind of person I am. 

 

To the OP - if they ask you to help, then help. It's called being of service to others. It's good for the soul, or so I think.

 

And to the rest of you pompous asses,  climb down off your high horse and clean up after it.

[MHicks]

All of the shooters are not there early to set up so those few who design and set up stages deserve a discount. All shooters are there when there squad finishes so if everyone helps it only takes a few minutes. The ones who get there early and set up are also there to tear down, they do both. 

 

There are a lot of ways to handle setup and running matches but a very small percentage have full paid setup and teardown crews. The only monthly matches I've shot where you don't tear down are ones that shoot Saturday and Sunday. Shoot on Saturday and no teardown.

[-JCN-]

I think it helps to set the expectations at either the shooter’s meeting or the PractiScore match description. 

[GrumpyOne]

Whether or not you think the OP posted a legitimate question, keep it civil in your responses. 

[jc3257]

IMHO the question is legit but asked in a poor manner. Regardless, all valid points have been made.

 

My question, if match fees went from $20-25 to $45-50 but with the higher match fee, you show up, shoot and go home. No setup or tear down. Would you pay the extra cost?

 

If there were two matches of equal quality within an hours drive of your home, one charged $20 but you would be expected to help setup and tear down and the other was $40 but you just show up and shoot and leave when finished. Which would you attend regularly?

 

 

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[RangerTrace]

Yesterday's match was a perfect example.  The match was set up the previous day by a very loyal and dedicated MD.  Probably all by himself, using some existing USPSA stages.  At the end of the match, everyone is expected to stack the stands, targets, etc. at the front of the bay, so they can be loaded on the trailer and put away.  About 5 of us stayed to load and put those things away.  Did I "want" to stay an extra 45 minutes?  No.  But I couldn't leave it to those other volunteers to do it by themselves.   

[AverageJoeShooting]

i think they should just make the shooters who dont help paste or run the tablet or the timer tear down

 

I hate tearing down, but i always help if its required.  I also paste every stage or run the tablet every stage.

I am always resetting or helping the match run

 

You do not want to be known as the shooter that doesnt help reset or doesnt help tear down.

Thats an easy way for you to not make friends, or be iced out of people who want to squad with you

 

Why are friends important in this sport?  well not too long ago i had no primers in the great primer shortage of 2020...two people i shoot with a lot sold me 5k primers each at cost just because they know me and they know id help them if they needed it

 

That 20 mins at the end of a match does a lot more than just delay you getting home

 

 

 

 

[NETim]

You want better matches?  More matches?  Want the sport to grow and thrive?  Help out!  It's as simple as that. 

 

NO ONE is above putting in a little sweat equity into this game.  

[Cuz]

3 hours ago, jc3257 said:

IMHO the question is legit but asked in a poor manner. Regardless, all valid points have been made.

 

My question, if match fees went from $20-25 to $45-50 but with the higher match fee, you show up, shoot and go home. No setup or tear down. Would you pay the extra cost?

 

If there were two matches of equal quality within an hours drive of your home, one charged $20 but you would be expected to help setup and tear down and the other was $40 but you just show up and shoot and leave when finished. Which would you attend regularly?

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

That would depend entirely on how much my back was hurting when it was time to head to the match.

Normally, I specifically do NOT help set up before the match because I have a bad back, and if I do, I'd be very uncomfortable and too sore to shoot.  I'm usually pretty sore after the match, and some days I'd gladly pay someone $20 to do my share of breakdown.  But, short of that, I suck it up and help breakdown and put things away.  I figure I'm already sore, and breaking down a stage is possible to do even with the pain distraction.

 

[Nathanb]

This is my second biggest pet peeve other than proper who register and no show without a withdrawal. I keep a list of both. For research purposes. 

[IVC]

Different matches, different rules. 

 

Most local matches to me don't require tear-down from the squads. The entry fee is a bit higher, at 40, it goes to those who set up stages and it's all fair. They get paid and they work for it. If the fee is lower and the SOP is for the shooters to tear down stages, that's okay too - you have a choice of participating or not. 

 

Otherwise, refusing to tear down stages if it's expected is akin to refusing to tape because you can simply not do it. Not acceptable. If you don't like it, don't show up at the match. If you show up at the match, you accept the expected responsibilities for *that* club/match. 

[rowdyb]

if the match is a commercial, for profit enterprise then yeah don't tear down. if the match is a non profit club then please help.

[rowdyb]

14 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

eats shoots and leaves?

That's an enjoyable book about language and writing.

[rowdyb]

19 hours ago, CuriousNewbie said:

don't PAY to see a movie at the theater, then cleanup popcorn afterwards.  I don't PAY to attend a sporting event, then teardown the concessions stands.  I don't PAY to eat at a restaurant, then mop the floors and put the chairs on top of the tables.

Your argument is a simple logical fallacy. The two entities you're comparing are not activities that are equally comparable.

 

It seems to be very rare but when I lived in San Diego and shot at Pala and Norco (before it moved to Prado) all you did as a competitor was pay, shoot and leave. You didn't set up and you didn't tear down. The matches were full, the fee was reasonable and getting on the match crew was a desirable position people tried hard to reach. I did it a few times and made $100 for my contribution each time I did it. When you're charging over 100 people $40 it is easy to then kick down 5-700 to a set up crew. Now having shot locals in about 6 different states I realize how unique the situation was with the NRG and LDF clubs and matches.

[motosapiens]

20 hours ago, CuriousNewbie said:

 

 

Do you have a compelling argument?

 

i generally help tear down because I enjoy being part of the solution, and i don't want to be thought of as a selfish jerk. At my local matches, I do more teardown, and at matches where I travel, I do a little less. That's normal. I have been an MD (and I still design and build a stage for pretty much every match at my local range), so even tho I paid to enter, I don't feel like sticking the volunteers with way more than their share of work. Not everybody feels that way, and that's cool. Some folks leave as soon as shooting is done. That's not a problem as long as it's only a few people that do it regularly. Everybody knows who those people are....

Edited September 27, 2020 by motosapiens

[zzt]

I think the OP was intentionally trying to be confrontational.  It was a silly question.

 

Here is the way this works.  You pay high fees; you shoot and scoot.  If not, you are expected to work.

 

I shoot L1 matches at three local clubs.  They all differ in what they expect.  My home club gives you no discount for setting up.  They always have enough help to set up on shoot day.  Setup starts at 8 AM.  We are usually done by 9:30 or 10 depending on how elaborate the stages are.  At the match briefing everyone is told they are all expected to stay, tear down, a store everything where it belongs in the appropriate shed or wall rack.  Most do exactly that.  Match fee is $20 for members.  That's $19k/yr gross.  Take out USPSA fees, replacing expendables and bay repairs and you have a lot less.  Take the net over the five years they have been hosting USPSA matches and it doesn't come close to what they spent on steel, H bases, wall support and props, etc.  The club supports USPSA, 3-gun and cowboy action shoots (plus lots of rifle matches).  The attitude at the club is they support us; we support them.  Everyone wants to become a member at this club.  It is not unusual for non-members to show up and sign in for work days hoping it will give them a leg up in the membership lottery in October.

 

At a second club you get a $5 discount for helping set up.  You are expected to tear down the stages after you finish.  If you are in one of the front bays near the storage sheds you are expected to stow everything where it belongs.  In the other bays you load everything into a trailer, or stack everything in a neat pile.  Match fee is $25.

 

The third club has a volunteer set up crew who show up early and do the setup.  Everyone helps tear down and stacks everything neatly on the pallet(s) at the entrance to the bay.  You get extra brownie points for staying after that and helping stow everything in the storage building.  Match fee is $20.

 

 

[Umbrarian]

18 hours ago, Sarge said:

No it isn’t. He wouldn’t be welcome at the matches I attend if he asked the MD this question.

 

This is an all volunteer sport. Sounds like neither of you get that.

 

Well that is on your MD for failing to explain the procedures and expectations without losing his cool. It should be trivially easy to explain, along with target reset, painting steel,  scoring, picking up brass, etc. Folks are more likely to help, volunteer, etc., when they understand why and how it benefits them and everyone else.

 

And the idea that "Sounds like neither of you get that", merely,  for trying to offer an explanation to the OP as to why someone gets a discount and someone doesn't, wow. Fortunately non of my clubs make people unwelcome for asking questions.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Umbrarian

[Part_time_redneck]

20 hours ago, CuriousNewbie said:

Some matches in my area give registration fee DISCOUNTS for those who setup stages.  Others don't.

 

Either way, they all expect shooters to teardown stages after the match... for FREE!  Why? 

 

I don't PAY to see a movie at the theater, then cleanup popcorn afterwards.  I don't PAY to attend a sporting event, then teardown the concessions stands.  I don't PAY to eat at a restaurant, then mop the floors and put the chairs on top of the tables.

 

If I PAY a fee and you don't use that money to PAY someone to setup and/or teardown, it's not my responsibility/ obligation to do it for FREE.

 

If the match is FREE, I will setup and teardown each and every stage.  If I am given a registration DISCOUNT to teardown, then I will do it.  But PAY to shoot, then teardown for FREE (especially when those who setup received a DISCOUNT)... NO. 

 

Do you have a compelling argument?

 

 

Rowdy beat me to the logical end and moto got to the attitude before I could. Both took the words out of my mouth. 

 

Lets try a different approach for the OP with a few questions. 

 

This site is one of the most valuable collections of resources & information on the subject of competitive shooting in existence today. It is given to you at no cost. Most people here are seeking to increase knowledge, gain skills, remedy an issue / solve a problem or help someone. These inquiries / responses generally, from a competitive pistol competition, look like but are not limited to things such as:

 

-Draws

-Reloads

-Splits

-Transitions

-Stage breakdown & planning

-Training

-Movement 

-Gear - Guns / loads

-Equipment- Presses / apparel 

-Mental development 

 

These are some FAQ's here, and they are always answered. OP, are any of these important to you? How do you stand in your performance/ development? 

 

The reasons we each do this and play these games are as numerous and unique as the individuals themselves. We all know why we do this and what we love about it. The beauty of practical shooting is at the end of the day you have no one to blame for your shortcomings except for yourself. We all have to decide if what we give is worth what we get. You might need to back up, do some soul searching and see if this is right for you. 

 

I regularly shoot matches with a gentleman and his daughter. Both are very accomplished shooters in multiple games / disciplines and the nicest people you could meet. The young lady recently turned 13 years of age.  After our final stage, she helps tear down stages better than most of the men. Trying to be polite to her and asking when she is handling steel targets to be put away, " can I take that?" She replies, " no thanks, I've got it. How did you do today? I did ok but messed up on stage x a bit. I did real good on stages x x x though." The whole time with a smile on her face. 

 

Some people help. 

Others, well

 

 

[konkapot]

There's probably some trolling going on.

 

A normal human shoots a couple matches and observes what the societal norms are.

 

It would take about two seconds to realize club matches are a non-profit, volunteer sport. 

 

This is an old topic that gets brought up from time to time..."I'm a customer and I blah blah blah...."

 

Bottom line is you help tear down, you help RO, you tape targets, you hold the door for old ladies at the grocery store, you buy Girl Scout cookies from the neighbor kids, etc. It's just something you do. If I've driven more than about 2.5 hours I sometimes help tear down pretty briskly before I hit the road. 

[Umbrarian]

16 hours ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

I didn't get the impression the OP was a 'shoot and scoot' type, but I guess it is just politically incorrect to ask a question about why or why not.

 

 

I got the impression he wanted a discount but was not available for setup, but was available for takedown.

[Umbrarian]

DT

Edited September 27, 2020 by Umbrarian

[slowhands]

23 hours ago, toothandnail said:

I agree with you OP, at my range, you show up, shoot, leave, no stage building, no tear down.
Shot a Multi gun a while back, every stage we were expected to pickup shotgun hulls, and everything but brass - which we did. Our last stage, NONE of the previous 9 squads picked up anything.
Since we were the last squad they wanted us to clean the stage and tear down.
NOPE . 
That was the RO's job to keep a clean stage, not up to the last squad to clean up every bodies mess for 2 days

 

At our L1 matches, the ROs are shooting too. Often I'm on a squad with only one other RO, and so I get a quick break when I'm on deck, load my mags as fast as I can after I shoot, and otherwise I'm running the timer or at least the tablet the rest of the time. It's a lot of work. Now it's supposed to be my job to police brass and do all the tear down too? No way. Help out or stay home.

 

L2+ matches are a different story, since set up and tear down can take full or multiple days, but the fees are higher and there are perks for the ROs and staff.