Why expect shooters to teardown stages for FREE after they've PAID to participate in a match?

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/26/2020 at 8:02 PM, Sprig said:

This a a volunteer sport for the most part, at most local clubs . Without volunteers we have nothing . At least where i am at .

 

I see...

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/26/2020 at 8:11 PM, Ming the Merciless said:

 

It is a legitimate question, just poorly phrased.  Several clubs local to me give discounts for helping to set up and a discount coupon for helping to tear down, valid at the next match.  The set up discount is 50% off the current match entry and the tear down coupon varies from 10 to 20% depending on the club and size of the match.

 

Why would asking a question make a person unwelcome at your matches?  Not everyone comes into the sport with the full historical knowledge of the sport and some have participated in other sports that are less volunteer oriented.

 

I appreciate your understanding and comment.  Thank you.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/26/2020 at 9:24 PM, -JCN- said:

You can just think of it this way:

Match costs $50. 
You get $10 discount if you set up. 
You get $25 discount if you tear down. 
 

For people’s convenience they already credited you the $25 for tear down, but feel free to refuse the credit back and give the money to someone else on your squad to do the 10 min of tear down you don’t want to. 

 

Interesting point.

[toothandnail]

24 minutes ago, Malarky112 said:

I have NO problem at all helping tear down stages at local matches...

 

But what about a level 3 match?  That you paid $185 to enter?  That had RO's embedded instead of working the whole weekend?

Embedded - you mean traveled with the squads ? ?

[TonytheTiger]

A moderately clever troll with poor follow-up trolling? Not brilliant scheme to get to 50 posts?

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/26/2020 at 9:37 PM, Ming the Merciless said:

 

You forgot to say "And stay off my lawn!"

 

I didn't get the impression the OP was a 'shoot and scoot' type, but I guess it is just politically incorrect to ask a question about why or why not.

 

 

I help during and after the match.  During the match isn't an issue because I didn't pay the other shooters.  As I help teardown, I think "why I am doing this, after paying the organizer".  To me, why should I pay the organizers and then provide free labor for the organizers?  That is why I posted the question.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:02 PM, MHicks said:

All of the shooters are not there early to set up so those few who design and set up stages deserve a discount. All shooters are there when there squad finishes so if everyone helps it only takes a few minutes. The ones who get there early and set up are also there to tear down, they do both. 

 

There are a lot of ways to handle setup and running matches but a very small percentage have full paid setup and teardown crews. The only monthly matches I've shot where you don't tear down are ones that shoot Saturday and Sunday. Shoot on Saturday and no teardown.

 

Interesting.  That's not the case where I live.  I shoot on the weekend and the teardown expectation is present.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:38 PM, -JCN- said:

I think it helps to set the expectations at either the shooter’s meeting or the PractiScore match description. 

 

YES!  I have yet to experience that.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 6:33 AM, GrumpyOne said:

Whether or not you think the OP posted a legitimate question, keep it civil in your responses. 

 

Appreciate that.  

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 7:11 AM, jc3257 said:

IMHO the question is legit but asked in a poor manner. Regardless, all valid points have been made.

 

My question, if match fees went from $20-25 to $45-50 but with the higher match fee, you show up, shoot and go home. No setup or tear down. Would you pay the extra cost?

 

If there were two matches of equal quality within an hours drive of your home, one charged $20 but you would be expected to help setup and tear down and the other was $40 but you just show up and shoot and leave when finished. Which would you attend regularly?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Yes, I would pay more.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 9:03 AM, RangerTrace said:

Yesterday's match was a perfect example.  The match was set up the previous day by a very loyal and dedicated MD.  Probably all by himself, using some existing USPSA stages.  At the end of the match, everyone is expected to stack the stands, targets, etc. at the front of the bay, so they can be loaded on the trailer and put away.  About 5 of us stayed to load and put those things away.  Did I "want" to stay an extra 45 minutes?  No.  But I couldn't leave it to those other volunteers to do it by themselves.   

 

That's exactly it.  I don't know why people keep saying it only takes 5 or 10 minutes... BS.  45 minutes seems about right for the matches I go to.  

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 9:05 AM, AverageJoeShooting said:

i think they should just make the shooters who dont help paste or run the tablet or the timer tear down

 

I hate tearing down, but i always help if its required.  I also paste every stage or run the tablet every stage.

I am always resetting or helping the match run

 

You do not want to be known as the shooter that doesnt help reset or doesnt help tear down.

Thats an easy way for you to not make friends, or be iced out of people who want to squad with you

 

Why are friends important in this sport?  well not too long ago i had no primers in the great primer shortage of 2020...two people i shoot with a lot sold me 5k primers each at cost just because they know me and they know id help them if they needed it

 

That 20 mins at the end of a match does a lot more than just delay you getting home

 

 

 

 

Appreciate your comment.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:54 AM, Cuz said:

 

That would depend entirely on how much my back was hurting when it was time to head to the match.

Normally, I specifically do NOT help set up before the match because I have a bad back, and if I do, I'd be very uncomfortable and too sore to shoot.  I'm usually pretty sore after the match, and some days I'd gladly pay someone $20 to do my share of breakdown.  But, short of that, I suck it up and help breakdown and put things away.  I figure I'm already sore, and breaking down a stage is possible to do even with the pain distraction.

 

 

Appreciate your comment.  

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 12:40 PM, rowdyb said:

if the match is a commercial, for profit enterprise then yeah don't tear down. if the match is a non profit club then please help.

 

Short.  Simple.  Makes sense.  I appreciate your comment.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 12:51 PM, rowdyb said:

Your argument is a simple logical fallacy. The two entities you're comparing are not activities that are equally comparable.

 

It seems to be very rare but when I lived in San Diego and shot at Pala and Norco (before it moved to Prado) all you did as a competitor was pay, shoot and leave. You didn't set up and you didn't tear down. The matches were full, the fee was reasonable and getting on the match crew was a desirable position people tried hard to reach. I did it a few times and made $100 for my contribution each time I did it. When you're charging over 100 people $40 it is easy to then kick down 5-700 to a set up crew. Now having shot locals in about 6 different states I realize how unique the situation was with the NRG and LDF clubs and matches.

 

If there are +50 people each paying +$25 each weekend... maintenance/ admin fees have been more than covered and it seems like someone could easily be paid (or discounted) to teardown.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 1:54 PM, zzt said:

I think the OP was intentionally trying to be confrontational.  It was a silly question.

 

Here is the way this works.  You pay high fees; you shoot and scoot.  If not, you are expected to work.

 

I shoot L1 matches at three local clubs.  They all differ in what they expect.  My home club gives you no discount for setting up.  They always have enough help to set up on shoot day.  Setup starts at 8 AM.  We are usually done by 9:30 or 10 depending on how elaborate the stages are.  At the match briefing everyone is told they are all expected to stay, tear down, a store everything where it belongs in the appropriate shed or wall rack.  Most do exactly that.  Match fee is $20 for members.  That's $19k/yr gross.  Take out USPSA fees, replacing expendables and bay repairs and you have a lot less.  Take the net over the five years they have been hosting USPSA matches and it doesn't come close to what they spent on steel, H bases, wall support and props, etc.  The club supports USPSA, 3-gun and cowboy action shoots (plus lots of rifle matches).  The attitude at the club is they support us; we support them.  Everyone wants to become a member at this club.  It is not unusual for non-members to show up and sign in for work days hoping it will give them a leg up in the membership lottery in October.

 

At a second club you get a $5 discount for helping set up.  You are expected to tear down the stages after you finish.  If you are in one of the front bays near the storage sheds you are expected to stow everything where it belongs.  In the other bays you load everything into a trailer, or stack everything in a neat pile.  Match fee is $25.

 

The third club has a volunteer set up crew who show up early and do the setup.  Everyone helps tear down and stacks everything neatly on the pallet(s) at the entrance to the bay.  You get extra brownie points for staying after that and helping stow everything in the storage building.  Match fee is $20.

 

 

 

Appreciate your comment.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 2:22 PM, Umbrarian said:

 

Well that is on your MD for failing to explain the procedures and expectations without losing his cool. It should be trivially easy to explain, along with target reset, painting steel,  scoring, picking up brass, etc. Folks are more likely to help, volunteer, etc., when they understand why and how it benefits them and everyone else.

 

And the idea that "Sounds like neither of you get that", merely,  for trying to offer an explanation to the OP as to why someone gets a discount and someone doesn't, wow. Fortunately non of my clubs make people unwelcome for asking questions.

 

Exactly!  Appreciate your comments.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 2:22 PM, Part_time_redneck said:

 

Rowdy beat me to the logical end and moto got to the attitude before I could. Both took the words out of my mouth. 

 

Lets try a different approach for the OP with a few questions. 

 

This site is one of the most valuable collections of resources & information on the subject of competitive shooting in existence today. It is given to you at no cost. Most people here are seeking to increase knowledge, gain skills, remedy an issue / solve a problem or help someone. These inquiries / responses generally, from a competitive pistol competition, look like but are not limited to things such as:

 

-Draws

-Reloads

-Splits

-Transitions

-Stage breakdown & planning

-Training

-Movement 

-Gear - Guns / loads

-Equipment- Presses / apparel 

-Mental development 

 

These are some FAQ's here, and they are always answered. OP, are any of these important to you? How do you stand in your performance/ development? 

 

The reasons we each do this and play these games are as numerous and unique as the individuals themselves. We all know why we do this and what we love about it. The beauty of practical shooting is at the end of the day you have no one to blame for your shortcomings except for yourself. We all have to decide if what we give is worth what we get. You might need to back up, do some soul searching and see if this is right for you. 

 

I regularly shoot matches with a gentleman and his daughter. Both are very accomplished shooters in multiple games / disciplines and the nicest people you could meet. The young lady recently turned 13 years of age.  After our final stage, she helps tear down stages better than most of the men. Trying to be polite to her and asking when she is handling steel targets to be put away, " can I take that?" She replies, " no thanks, I've got it. How did you do today? I did ok but messed up on stage x a bit. I did real good on stages x x x though." The whole time with a smile on her face. 

 

Some people help. 

Others, well

 

 

I appreciate the time it took for you to comment.  I experienced something that didn't make sense to me, so I came to this forum to get feedback.  Thank you.

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 2:38 PM, Umbrarian said:

 

I got the impression he wanted a discount but was not available for setup, but was available for takedown.

 

Yes

[CuriousNewbie]

On 9/27/2020 at 7:34 PM, NETim said:

+1  And I act as MD at our club matches, so I get to do all kinds of behind the scenes stuff as well.    I'm not complaining.  The club is 10 minutes from my home and we get to have USPSA matches.  

 

I'm happy.

 

Seriously though, I consider it good etiquette to help with setup and tear down.  

 

Appreciate your comment.

[CuriousNewbie]

17 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Well benifit of the doubt, guy is just asking why ?

well simple economics. Remember, what one person gets for free another person pays for.
Locals tend to barely break even. If discounts were given for teardown, the match fees would go up for everyone else to cover match overhead.
Settup takes hours and actual work, day before or really early before,,, So to get the match off the ground MD's offer incentives that other shooters pay for. I imagine most are ok with that, as they like to shoot and dont want to get up early or come the day before.
Tear down happens when everyone is there, and usually a 5 minute task for most of the shooters.
My old club it was just tear down, and make 4 piles at rear of bay, steel, stands, stakes, barriers/props, one person took the trash and targets to the dumpster as they left.  Done in 5 minutes.
Match directors could easily pay to have that done, but fees would go up.  Gonna guess most shooters are ok with doing 5-10 minutes after the match rather than higher fees.
Match in HI, the MD, would be calculating scores, and have them out shortly after teardown. This was in the paper days.

 Appreciate your comments.

[CuriousNewbie]

14 hours ago, Kema said:

Some local small matches have two entry fees

- 5 EUR, competitor commits to patch, help with stages and clean things up

- 20 EUR, you can sit on your ass

 

Works in both ways and makes clear what is expected from you.

 

Sounds like a good idea.

[CuriousNewbie]

8 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

 

 

It's my impression that the OP was NOT trolling, and very likely has already had someone at his home range try to explain to him the necessity to help out after the match (as most the responses have tried to do). The result was a serious case of butthurt which he drug over here looking for some sympathetic souls to say, "Yeah - you're right! It shouldn't be that way!"

 

And I'm equally sure he's disappointed that v-e-r-y few people here gave him a hug, and a backrub, and a cookie, and joined in expressing his sorrow over the onerous treatment he's been forced to suffer.

 

 My sympathy for this individual was exhausted after reading his initial post. Do the work.

 

Just because a person asks a question it doesn't mean they are seeking similar opinions, especially when they post on a site like this.  Obviously I am ask others for their opinion in order to gain a different perspective.  I have no respect for people who are asked a question and leave a BS comment... without answering the question at all.  Thanks for nothing.

[CuriousNewbie]

7 hours ago, broadside72 said:

I guess I could just stop running matches and go shoot as a competitor on those weekend now. Plus save all the time during the month I would otherwise spend on practiscore management, approvals, match management, stages designs, recruiting volunteers, prop maintenance, etc. 

As stated already, setup takes way longer than tear down. The match fees are set for a reason. Range use fees, USPSA fees, targets, paint, tapes, staples and ice/water for each match. Then amortize prop maintenance, upgrades, etc. for metal targets/props, lumber, snow fence, target stands, stakes, staplers, stake hammer/bars, drill drivers and batteries, tablets, extra tablet batteries, walkie talkies, first aid supplies, printer ink, printer paper, website costs, ISP fees, insurance, should I go on?

And I don't get paid anything more than the occasional shout out/thanks/pat of the back after each match. 

And tear down is easy. Stack walls, pull stakes and put in a bucket, pull targets and sticks, stack fault lines and target stands. Then pick up brass, you can even keep it. It's not hard. A good squad can get even the largest stages cleared in 15-20 minutes.

 

Appreciate your comments.

[CuriousNewbie]

1 hour ago, Malarky112 said:

I have NO problem at all helping tear down stages at local matches...

 

But what about a level 3 match?  That you paid $185 to enter?  That had RO's embedded instead of working the whole weekend?

 

Anyone care to comment on that?