February BOD meeting - NEW USPSA RULES

[Jeff226]

6 minutes ago, davsco said:

limited minor would be pretty cool and there'd be a ton of crossover with 2 & 3 gun where lots are shooting 9mm 2011's.

 

I agree, limited minor and carry optics are the two biggest growth/longevity opportunities for USPSA.

[zhunter]

The timer will tell what weight is best for a particular shooter.  I can’t imagine a 59oz. gun is gonna be fast in a wide transition.

 

I have. X5 Legion and was thinking of trying a regular X5 grip module on the timer to see if it made a difference.  

 

Ho hummm,  have fun with the gun/gear race. I think I will practice some more

[robb315]

3 hours ago, B_RAD said:
 

Now, if you have a cut up stock 3 or shadow 2, the resale value of that gun just took a hit since OR models will be available. 

I keep seeing this being said. Will it though? I’m about to pick up a S2 for CO and am probably still going to have the slide lightened. Less reciprocating weight. Just like the limited and open guns with all the cuts.  Those slides on the guns you mentioned have some heft to them. I think a couple ounces removed would help. 

[2MoreChains]

IMO this rule change was needed because there were guns on the Production list that were not allowed in CO unless one drastically reduced the weight.  Carry Optics was supposed to be a Production List gun + optic division, but the 45 oz max weight rule limited that.  Add to which, manufacturers are building guns reputed to be greater than 45 oz as they follow the trends/desires of the industry.  Who knows if that trend will continue but I for one think it’s cool that our little sport can have that much impact on major manufacturers such as Sig, Beretta, Tanfo, CZ, etc.  

 

So unless we freeze Prod at a certain point in time, such as only guns that were being produced circa early 2000 when Production first became a division, it needs to evolve as manufacturers continue to innovate.  

 

The BOD could have addressed this by going with the old rule of OFM weight including empty mag + 4 oz and left it at that.  So once XYZ gun meets the NROI required manufacture number (plus compliance) they would be added to the list and the OFM manufactured weight would be the max weight listed for that gun.

 

Or the BOD could do what they did and just set a flat weight across the board that covered the heaviest factory gun known plus a little cushion (e.g. +4 oz).  

 

The latter makes sense because IMO it levels the playing field more so than the previous rule.  If somebody shooting a Gen 4 Glock 34 weighing in at 26 + 4 oz wanted to add weight to be on par with the Shadow 2 / Stock 2 / X5 Legion crowd, they can now do so up to 59 ounces.  However under the old rules going 30.1 oz would bump them to Open.  

 

I find it interesting that the majority of discussion is about the weight limit and not the fact that aftermarket slides, barrels, slide cuts etc. are now allowed.  

 

 

 

[regor]

People spend too much time chasing weight or the next hot thing in Production instead of practicing. A heavy gun isn't going to fix s#!tty fundamentals. 

 

These rules largely make ROing at Level 2+ matches easier, which is a good thing. No more weight lookup and quik-mafs needed at the chrono; does it fit in the box and is it under 59oz? Good to go. The slide milling change resolves issues like the CZC Accu-bushing install and allows 9mm Gucci Glocks to compete in Prod where they belong.

 

The only change I find a little odd is dropping the minimum number made to 500, but I can't think of too many guns that make the 500 min and don't hit the 2000 min eventually, so if this change gets new guns onto the Prod list sooner than I am fine with it. 

[B_RAD]

6 minutes ago, robb315 said:

I keep seeing this being said. Will it though? I’m about to pick up a S2 for CO and am probably still going to have the slide lightened. Less reciprocating weight. Just like the limited and open guns with all the cuts.  Those slides on the guns you mentioned have some heft to them. I think a couple ounces removed would help. 

Maybe. 
 

 

speaking for myself, I’d buy a factory OR slide before I’d buy one that was milled after the fact. Especially If the factory option is cheaper. 
 

 

[SV650Squid]

3 hours ago, awaldro7 said:

The main thing that annoys me is not the fact that 59oz is so high its that the weight changed anyway.  Tons of people have invested lots of money and time trying to get up to the current limit.  Companies have setup to customize guns to meet the limit.  Companies have released new guns to fit the limit.  Now they are all outdated.  It seems to me that the more these rules change then the less it drives companies to make well engineered products to fit the divisions nicely. I am relatively new to USPSA and I chose carry optics based on the fact that it was basically stock guns that can run an optic.  Based on all the other CO shooters I talk to they like it for the same reason.  If everyone wanted to shoot an open gun we would all be shooting open guns. 

 

Nils got 2nd last year with a Canik, and Max Michel used a plastic X5 before the Legion existed, iirc.

 

I don't think a light gun is holding people back much, if any.

[shred]

50% of the Limited activity last year was shooters shooting Minor.

 

They aren't doing that because it's competitive, they're doing that because they want to shoot hicap iron sights with minor ammo (for whatever reason: 3gun, noob, old, young, cheap, not-reloading, gun too heavy, etc). 

 

USPSA should address that demand with more than "meh, they can shoot Limited".

 

[waktasz]

It must be so different in other regions because I've never seen a match have that many. 

Of the data I've seen, it's between 30 to a max of 40%....and those 40% of the shooters are always at the bottom 40% of the results. They seem like new shooters that show up with 3 mags and not enough pouches and get told to shoot Limited. Or people that don't really care to be competitive 

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, 2MoreChains said:

IMO this rule change was needed because there were guns on the Production list that were not allowed in CO unless one drastically reduced the weight.  Carry Optics was supposed to be a Production List gun + optic division, but the 45 oz max weight rule limited that.  Add to which, manufacturers are building guns reputed to be greater than 45 oz as they follow the trends/desires of the industry.  Who knows if that trend will continue but I for one think it’s cool that our little sport can have that much impact on major manufacturers such as Sig, Beretta, Tanfo, CZ, etc.  

 

 

 

 

But now the resale value on your shadow2 has been diminished!!! lol. Have you ever even sold a gun? I always thought the point was to acquire MORE.

[MHicks]

Just curious. Are there many guns that will be excluded because they're over the 59 ounce limit? Did they even need to set an upper limit?

[HCH]

4 hours ago, 2MoreChains said:

 

I find it interesting that the majority of discussion is about the weight limit and not the fact that aftermarket slides, barrels, slide cuts etc. are now allowed.  

 

 

 

 

I think that’s because most of us think it was dumb that the guy with a G22 couldn’t slap a G34 upper on his pistol and remain Production legal. 

 

 

[shred]

56 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Just curious. Are there many guns that will be excluded because they're over the 59 ounce limit? Did they even need to set an upper limit?

 

Desert Eagle fans will be sad.  But those are SA anyway, even with a trigger heavier than most DAs...

 

[2MoreChains]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

But now the resale value on your shadow2 has been diminished!!! lol. Have you ever even sold a gun? I always thought the point was to acquire MORE.

 

Who cares?  I didn’t have that gun built with resale in mind.  

 

I intend to keep shooting that gun even tho it only weighs an anemic 44.1 oz.  

 

[2MoreChains]

2 hours ago, HCH said:

 

I think that’s because most of us think it was dumb that the guy with a G22 couldn’t slap a G34 upper on his pistol and remain Production legal. 

 

 

 

True dat

[Brooke]

We have to change the equipment rules frequently so people will think they need new guns. It's no mystery. Manufacturers run this sport. It's just a matter of time before we have 0.22 legal.

 

Buy now and buy later that's the goal. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

At all costs power factor must remain in place. 

Get ride of that and it’s all down hill in my opinion. 

[usmc1974]

On 3/2/2020 at 7:30 PM, DeweyH said:

Looks like in production they got rid of all dimensional parameters on barrels and slides.  Including caliber.  Does this mean you could now put a Glock 35 slide on a Glock 17 frame and use a 9mm conversion barrel?

Tell me what I'm missing here? A Glock 34 and 35 are already on a Glock 17 frame and a Glock 34 35 slide is basically the same slide in the both already allowed in production

Edited March 4, 2020 by usmc1974

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, Brooke said:

It's no mystery. Manufacturers run this sport.

 

Not happy that it took me a good while to figure this out. 

[MemphisMechanic]

17 hours ago, awaldro7 said:

Tons of people have invested lots of money and time trying to get up to the current limit.  Companies have setup to customize guns to meet the limit.  Companies have released new guns to fit the limit.  

Only if you believe that much mass holds an advantage.

 

I shot a 45oz Tanfoglio stock 3 in production for a year as an A-class.

 

All of the experienced people in this thread are saying that 40-45oz is the high end of the optimum sweet spot for good reason. That’s the zone wherein you’ve optimized both handling and the recoil impulse.

 

I wouldn’t run a 50+ oz 9mm gun even if I were handed it for free. Hell most of the Limited .40 guns with steel grips installed come in below that benchmark, and they’d have far more reason to up the gun’s weight.

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[shred]

^^ This.

 

This gun did not set the world on fire even in Major PF and much predictions of the sky falling:

 

 

If anybody hasn't, go flip through the powerpoint presentations in the BOD minutes and you can see a bit of what they were thinking and why.

[ck1]

I see the validity in a few aspects of what they did with the new rules, but it sure looks like they reached for the machete when they should have used a scalpel :

1. The CO weight limit was just too low and required people to invest time and money in order to just shoot the guns that were already fine and they were used to shooting in Production, 45oz was just a bad ceiling in the first place and production-weight+4-5oz could have solved that easily. Having people spending $$$ to cut up their Shadows and Tanfo's etc to play in CO was just wrong...

2. The slide-lightening thing being allowed in Production IMO is clearly a nod to "Gucci Glocks" and allowing more peeps new to the sport to "run what they brung", I'm on-board with that honestly, but IMO this should have been squarely applied to polymer-framed striker-fired guns only, because that's what is being addressed and easily available in the aftermarket, allowing things like that for all the guns in Production that don't even really have the same affordable options in the aftermarket, well, makes it way less "Production" than it already is. Then, 59oz max weight for Production just seems ridiculous, arguably the Shadow 2's and Stock 2/3's etc are already too heavy and are leaning towards "race guns", I think there needed to be a ceiling, boat-anchor heavy probably isn't it.

 

All in all, IMO the new rules just seem to me like the laziest easiest way to go about allowing more new shooters/guns, and heading towards doing away with equipment checks... If "leveling the playing field" was really the goal, Power Factor is what really needs to be addressed, because clearly there exists an advantage for those who reload vs those that don't and buy their ammo at a store, if minimum power factor was closer to 140 or more like off-the-shelf stuff, it would be a lot fairer, sooner or later I predict that'll change too...

Edited March 4, 2020 by ck1

[motosapiens]

42 minutes ago, ck1 said:

If "leveling the playing field" was really the goal, Power Factor is what really needs to be addressed, because clearly there exists an advantage for those who reload vs those that don't and buy their ammo at a store, if minimum power factor was closer to 140 or more like off-the-shelf stuff, it would be a lot fairer, sooner or later I predict that'll change too...

 

What  has your testing shown to be the difference in your stage times using 140pf vs 132-ish (what most minor shooters load at)?

 

When I've used factory 9mm ammo of various brands, I haven't been able to detect any performance difference whatsoever compared to my reloads. Therefore I conclude it may be an imaginary advantage.

Edited March 4, 2020 by motosapiens

[jcc7x7]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

What  has your testing shown to be the difference in your stage times using 140pf vs 132-ish (what most minor shooters load at)?

 

When I've used factory 9mm ammo of various brands, I haven't been able to detect any performance difference whatsoever compared to my reloads. Therefore I conclude it may be an imaginary advantage.

Concur that any perceived advantage is in the mind but not on the timer.

I use to run 142 of in a sig metal x5 all round, because the gun ran better that way.

No difference in HF than with 132pf. fwiw

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 Therefore I conclude it may be an imaginary advantage.

 

I think this is probably correct on about 99.99 percent of the crap people gripe about on these type threads