February BOD meeting - NEW USPSA RULES

[rustychev]

So prod = lim minor and CO = open minor.

[Colby_Bedell]

26 minutes ago, rustychev said:

So prod = lim minor and CO = open minor.

not really. Prod is starting to get there but not really. CO is close enough to Open minor with the gear restrictions.

[Rnlinebacker]

 
Vendors will love it. 
 
In general it will add cost to those who feel the need to have the most capable guns and it will reduce the value of the members existing guns. 
 
I think messing with equipment rules is a bad idea unless there is a strong specific need. One of the reasons I gave up on IDPA. 
 

Let those who wanna spend money spend it. Those who train won't be bothered by gun heaviness or lightness

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[rustychev]

4 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Let those who wanna spend money spend it. Those who train won't be bothered by gun heaviness or lightness

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There's a lot of Truth to that but nobody likes to come in, in the bottom 10% just because they're out geared and well skill has way more to do with it than gear this is starting to get out of hand for division we call production.

[rocket99]

And the same guys that win now will keep on winning regardless.........


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[motosapiens]

48 minutes ago, rustychev said:

There's a lot of Truth to that but nobody likes to come in, in the bottom 10% just because they're out geared and well skill has way more to do with it than gear this is starting to get out of hand for division we call production.

you think a good shooter with an average gun will finish in the bottom 10%? That has not been my experience.

 

I'm not sure I'm buying the whole 'heavier=better' for 9mm minor divisions, but I'm a grown-ass man, not little girl crying about not getting a pony for xmas.

[usmcchet9296]

Now CZ please sell a optics ready slide so those of us who can’t afford 2 guns but want to shoot carry optics and irons can do both and not cut our existing slide

[Stmark73]

USMCCHET.  With the czc rds system. You can go back and forth production and co. Slide milling is now allowed in production.

 

[Heliarclee]

43 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you think a good shooter with an average gun will finish in the bottom 10%? That has not been my experience.

 

I'm not sure I'm buying the whole 'heavier=better' for 9mm minor divisions, but I'm a grown-ass man, not little girl crying about not getting a pony for xmas.

I think Nils proved that last year shooting a Canik.  

[HCH]

50 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you think a good shooter with an average gun will finish in the bottom 10%? That has not been my experience.

 

I'm not sure I'm buying the whole 'heavier=better' for 9mm minor divisions, but I'm a grown-ass man, not little girl crying about not getting a pony for xmas.

 

Will it really matter? Who knows. 

 

But if the rules say max weight is 35 ounces or 45 ounces or 59 ounces or 15 pounds, one should be able to make their gun that weight. I don’t understand the “this gun is too heavy, so mill the crap out of it to make weight, but don’t strap some weight to the front of your plastic turd” mentality. 

 

Either go off of the manufacturer’s weight, plus “x” ounces, or go with a flat weight limit. 

[Rnlinebacker]

There's a lot of Truth to that but nobody likes to come in, in the bottom 10% just because they're out geared and well skill has way more to do with it than gear this is starting to get out of hand for division we call production.

Anybody in the bottom and STAYS is there solely on lack of commitment to practice and learning. There are local competitors and national level people taking lunch money with Glocks. Please miss me with the excuses lol

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[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, rustychev said:

So prod = lim minor and CO = open minor.

Pretty much,, Well L10 minor ,other than the irrational fear of single actions. In a world of internal single actions that technically arnt .

I think it is at a point you could easily merge SS Pro L10 and maybe revolver. Into Limited 10/8 ,  allow 355 major for revolver. 

[robb315]

6 hours ago, usmcchet9296 said:

Now CZ please sell a optics ready slide so those of us who can’t afford 2 guns but want to shoot carry optics and irons can do both and not cut our existing slide

CGW posted they just got a batch of optics ready slides in. 

[RIIID]

Now my Production guns will be legal again and the hundreds of guns I worked on, sadly most had to go out and buy new guns to keep playing the game legally.

Rich

[EEH]

If you look lately CO is way out front of production. It’s almost like prod.is dying.

[rooster]

Production was supposed to be for competing with equipment you already had and edc . Who carries a 59 oz. gun? It’s always about the money!

[rustychev]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

you think a good shooter with an average gun will finish in the bottom 10%? That has not been my experience.

 

I'm not sure I'm buying the whole 'heavier=better' for 9mm minor divisions, but I'm a grown-ass man, not little girl crying about not getting a pony for xmas.

ok admittedly bottom 10% is a exaggeration and the good guys win and will most likely keep doing so.  The point I was trying to make is that Prob was supposed to be the buy your new gun and a few mags and shoot now I can mill the slide and add weight or change the slide out with a different length after market slide change all the small parts.  Its no longer a relativity cheep place for the new guy to start and be competitive at far as his or her gun goes.

Edited March 3, 2020 by rustychev

[shred]

Enough people with fancy milled-on customized guns complained "there is no real difference" that the rule changed to allow them.

So now newbies show up with plain guns and get told "there is no real difference", yet wonder how come most everyone better has one.

 

Maybe we'll need to add a "Straight-From-Factory-Gun-This-Time-We-Mean-It" division..

 

Although the powerpoint calls out red dots as the factor for division growth, I'd argue "Hicap" could be used about equally well.  CO took a big jump when that changed and the only locap division with significant activity is the one that declined y/y.  Half of the Limited activity is Minor shooters which is another indication of demand for hicap minor.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

12 hours ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Let those who wanna spend money spend it. Those who train won't be bothered by gun heaviness or lightness
 

 

My wrankle is that they have sucked the value out of equipment that the members have invested in, in favor of creating cash flow for vendors and without any apparent benefit to the membership. USPSA is supposed to be a shooters club rather than a vendors beneficiary association. If there is any perceived benefit to the shooters I would like to read it and anything else pertinent to the decision process, sometimes lack of communication is the root of aggravation.  

 

I agree that training can allow you to beat a shooter with a better gun.

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, rustychev said:

ok admittedly bottom 10% is a exaggeration and the good guys win and will most likely keep doing so.  The point I was trying to make is that Prob was supposed to be the buy your new gun and a few mags and shoot now I can mill the slide and add weight or change the slide out with a different length after market slide change all the small parts.  Its no longer a relativity cheep place for the new guy to start and be competitive at far as his or her gun goes.

do you really think someone can't just buy a gun, drop in a trigger kit, and be competitive?

 

I'm not convinced that 30 oz guns are any disadvantage in a minor division, except possibly for little girls with very limited hand strength. I've done a fair amount of testing on the topic. I think people who don't want to practice or test things will *perceive* there is some kind of advantage, because most people would rather spend money than practice. If you prefer a heavy gun, by all means, get one. But I certainly don't feel like I'm at any disadvantage with a light one.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, rooster said:

Production was supposed to be for competing with equipment you already had and edc . Who carries a 59 oz. gun? It’s always about the money!

so do you believe that weight is always an advantage when shooting minor, and you'll *have* to have a 59 oz gun to be successful?

 

I don't.

[Rnlinebacker]

 
My wrankle is that they have sucked the value out of equipment that the members have invested in, in favor of creating cash flow for vendors and without any apparent benefit to the membership. USPSA is supposed to be a shooters club rather than a vendors beneficiary association. If there is any perceived benefit to the shooters I would like to read it and anything else pertinent to the decision process, sometimes lack of communication is the root of aggravation.  
 
I agree that training can allow you to beat a shooter with a better gun.
 
 
 

No one cares what equipment we invest. We all make choices on what we want to spend our money. You spend too much and now your gun is perceived to be useless, oh well.

I have no issue with vendor involvement as I'm worried about competing in major matches. The money they infuse is critical in level 3s and nats. Unless we go the route of raising our membership fees to hundreds of dollars to offset no vendor involvement.

Value your training with the equipment you like and the results will show you that 59 ounces didn't make a difference

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[rustychev]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

do you really think someone can't just buy a gun, drop in a trigger kit, and be competitive?

 

I'm not convinced that 30 oz guns are any disadvantage in a minor division, except possibly for little girls with very limited hand strength. I've done a fair amount of testing on the topic. I think people who don't want to practice or test things will *perceive* there is some kind of advantage, because most people would rather spend money than practice. If you prefer a heavy gun, by all means, get one. But I certainly don't feel like I'm at any disadvantage with a light one.

I must not be explaining myself well.

 

I miss production as a truly stock gun area vs limited minor as it is now becoming.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, rustychev said:

I must not be explaining myself well.

 

I miss production as a truly stock gun area vs limited minor as it is now becoming.

why? you can still be entirely competitive with a stock gun and a drop-in trigger kit. Or if you like to tinker with stuff you can tinker with stuff.

 

i'm shooting a plain old xdm in CO, and I don't feel like I'm at any disadvantage to the guys shooting shadowII's, except the local guy with a shadowII has been shooting CO a little longer than I have and is better. But I'm catching him.

[IHAVEGAS]

16 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

No one cares what equipment we invest.
 

 

A big 10 - 4 to that. A rule change which makes your $xxx.xx gun or accessory very hard to sell for more than 50% of the value prior to the change does not seem to concern hq in the slightest. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

I have no issue with vendor involvement as I'm worried about competing in major matches. The money they infuse is critical in level 3s and nats. Unless we go the route of raising our membership fees to hundreds of dollars to offset no vendor involvement.
 

 

I think it is great that the very small minority of shooters who attend level 3 and national matches have that opportunity. I do think that they need to be self supporting.