C_Tanner Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, tdp88 said: It would be nice if in the future, these rule changes occurred at the beginning of the off season rather than right before the season starts up and everyone has already sorted out gear for the year. I live in Alabama, we don't have a off season.. Edited March 5, 2020 by C_Tanner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackCage Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 23 minutes ago, tdp88 said: It would be nice if in the future, these rule changes occurred at the beginning of the off season rather than right before the season starts up and everyone has already sorted out gear for the year. There are plenty of people who will let this "distraction" allow them to tinker with new gear instead of practicing. You realize people bring untested gear to Nationals, right? I know, it sounds absolutely crazy, but it happens all the time. P.S., I'm keeping my 34 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, ck1 said: This goes all the way back to page 4, but those who think or are saying power factor doesn't matter as far as equity is concerned are absolutely kidding themselves and suspending reality. Sorry, but that's physics, try not to be butt-hurt about it. Most off-the-shelf 9mm (American Eagle, S&B, etc) is 140+pf out of a 4" barrel, so if a competitor could clone themselves and shoot off-the-shelf stuff vs their clone shooting their 130ish pf reloads, the clone would have an advantage every single time. Yes, I've shot 140+ stuff vs 130ish stuff on the clock, it's not imaginary, it's science. I'm not saying that shooting softer ammo is going to turn a D-class shooter into a GM, I just think it's silly to believe it doesn't have an effect on performance (if it didn't, there wouldn't need to be any rules about it). I don't think most commercial ammo makes 140+pf out of a 4" barrel. here is some testing out of a 5" KART barrel that confirms my assertion. https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/1/18/38-different-9mm-loads/ I also don't think the difference between 130 and 140 is significant. Like you, I only have anecdotes to support that, but my personal testing in back to back drills and in matches has shown it's not something I really need to worry about. In fact, I'm not convinced there is a significant difference between 135 and 160pf in a 1911in terms of shooting speed, with the exception of bill drills and the can you count classifier. I shoot just as fast and accurately with the 45 as with 9mm. Admittedly, I'm only an M, so perhaps a more skilled shooter would notice a bigger difference, but I think it's just excuse-making, and not science. Edited March 5, 2020 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_Tanner Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 14 hours ago, waktasz said: The rules on paper seem kinda silly, but I don't think the changes drastically affect the real life look of the division. What are people really going to change now that this rule is in there? Brass grips for your CZ and maybe some holes in the slide? I agree with this, I shoot a X5 that weights 33.5 oz. I thought about adding weight, but why? my gun shoots great and is crazy flat with 132PF ammo. I really feel like If my gun gets any heavier my transitions will suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 31 minutes ago, tdp88 said: Although I don't personally care because I shoot a 34 and will continue to do so, I can certainly understand the frustration of those who spent a lot of time and money making weight, only for it to not matter. a lighter slide is still a significant advantage for a skilled shooter. they should be happy they spent the time and money to get better performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ted Murphy said: It’s funny what I got accused already because of these rules. Heck, one guy at a shoot this weekend flatly accused me that my shooting glasses (that I paid full retail for) were freebies. I guess I need to start carrying receipts. I doubt many if any gun company people know me or know that I am an Area Director. . I bet they wouldn’t know me even if they ran me over with their golf cart at a match. FYI I shoot a Glock 17 in production. The Glock was in fact free, but that’s because I won my division in a GSSF match last year and got a certificate- and1099. I'm not saying anybody got anything, but I'm sure you can see that with the weight limit changes being what they are, it could make some people wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, motosapiens said: a lighter slide is still a significant advantage for a skilled shooter. they should be happy they spent the time and money to get better performance. If by significant advantage you mean that it increases perceived recoil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, motosapiens said: a lighter slide is still a significant advantage for a skilled shooter. ...Within reason. I regret my featherweight slide on a 30oz Walther PPQ 4”. It’s rather violent and only a crushingly gorilla grip tames the dot down at all. Let’s just say that I now see why Vogel bolts weights to his Glock slides. And he obviously knows a thing or two: ...and that I’ll be interested to hear the results of @waktasz’s experiment. I don’t think the flatter yet snappier action of a lightweight slide is a good plan unless you have the weight in the frame/grips/magwell/etc to soften the recoil impulse. Your typical Limited gun is a good example of such. Yes, my gun does shoot flat when gripped hard. But the dot moves erratically if all that force isn’t perfectly balanced. Picking up a buddies polymer X5, on the other hand, felt like someone swapped the ammo with 90PF steel challenge rounds. Edited March 5, 2020 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, tdp88 said: If by significant advantage you mean that it increases perceived recoil... only newbs and spodes care about perceived recoil. skilled shooters care about the sights returning quickly so they can shoot another accurate shot as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: ...Within reason. <snip> I don’t think the flatter yet snappier action of a lightweight slide is a good plan unless you have the weight in the frame/grips/magwell/etc to soften the recoil impulse. Your typical Limited gun is a good example of such. agreed. I had in mind the heavy-azz stock2 and shadow2 guns that people were lightening. even if they don't *have* to do it to make weight, It's probably still a slight advantage. I have no desire to lighten the slide on my xdm Edited March 5, 2020 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, tdp88 said: I'm not saying anybody got anything, but I'm sure you can see that with the weight limit changes being what they are, it could make some people wonder. Perhaps. I can see your point for thinking that way. But if you look in my bio/ad in USPSA magazine last year when I was running for AD I said I wanted to make Shadow 2’s legal for CO without needing slide lightening. I wasn’t kidding. Edited March 5, 2020 by Ted Murphy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, tdp88 said: but I'm sure you can see that with the weight limit changes being what they are, it could make some people wonder. I was actually in favor of getting rid of the weight thing entirely. It's a pain in the ass to administrate, it's already been moved a number of times and... IMO, it's a self-solving problem. Our sport has always been about trade-offs ("do I want to go fast and get a good time, or slow down and get good hits") How heavy a gun is, is one of those tradeoffs (do I want a heavy gun to manage recoil, or a light gun for faster transitions... or whatever) I suspect at some point we'll stop moving the limit and just get rid of it. Get out of the way of letting the shooter figure out what works best for them... (Just Bruce's Opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 @motosapiens then we’re in agreement. Having direct experience here makes me shake my head EXTRA hard at the guys paying 2011-money for a carved up Salient/Agency/Etc glock . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bgary said: I suspect at some point we'll stop moving the limit and just get rid of it. Get out of the way of letting the shooter figure out what works best for them... (Just Bruce's Opinion) Isn’t that what we did? The limit is now 3.7 pounds. Rather than shock people by outright deleting the limit, they just took the limit and... Edited March 5, 2020 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, motosapiens said: only newbs and spodes care about perceived recoil. skilled shooters care about the sights returning quickly so they can shoot another accurate shot as soon as possible. I'm with you guys on the this being more relevant with a polymer gun than an all metal, but saying skilled shooters don't care about perceived recoil is ridiculous. With a proper grip the difference in sights returning is negligible between a chopped up shadow 2 and a stock gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sissy and want the softest shooting gun possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Just now, waktasz said: I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sissy and want the softest shooting gun possible. Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, tdp88 said: I'm with you guys on the this being more relevant with a polymer gun than an all metal, but saying skilled shooters don't care about perceived recoil is ridiculous. With a proper grip the difference in sights returning is negligible between a chopped up shadow 2 and a stock gun. it doesn't bother me if you believe that. I advise you to spend money trying to make your gun 'soft and flat'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) I ask it before so I asked it now. It's a 9 mm, for Christ's sake, how soft does it have to shoot before you can shoot it? It's kind of depressing and sad that the American Shooter had turned into such a pussy. I am sure I'm going to get blamed and burn in hell for this one.lol back in the early 80s when I started shooting the power factor 175 I hope I don't get in trouble for saying the p word Edited March 5, 2020 by usmc1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I notice a huge difference between the 115gr Blazer crap I bought last minute for practice and 147gr reloads I usually shoot. Can I shoot the 115s just about as good? Sure, but I like the feel of the heavier ones wayyy more. If you stick one of the 115s in the middle of a 147 grain mag it's clearly noticeable not just to me, but to people listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 it doesn't bother me if you believe that. I advise you to spend money trying to make your gun 'soft and flat'.[emoji106] I’ve shot some raced up minor guns and the timer tells me that the difference is insignificant at best. However, I do see the merit with major guns. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I wonder how many people get valid results form their so called test “on the clock”?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdp88 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, B_RAD said: I wonder how many people get valid results form their so called test “on the clock”?! I bet most people just pick one up and shoot some targets from low ready. I like to get some dry fire in and get familiar with the gun first and then run some drills like accelerator, distance change up, and doubles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 51 minutes ago, waktasz said: I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sissy and want the softest shooting gun possible. I had heard that about you....the softest shooting gun part, that is....LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, waktasz said: I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sissy and want the softest shooting gun possible. I want a flat shooting gun, recoil push is a non-issue to me with my 131pf 9mm loads. I will say that looking at video from last week’s match (1st match with the X5 Legion and 11# recoil spring), I did not like the muzzle flip, thinking about a 12# spring to experiment Edited March 5, 2020 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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