February BOD meeting - NEW USPSA RULES

[waktasz]

The rules on paper seem kinda silly, but I don't think the changes drastically affect the real life look of the division. What are people really going to change now that this rule is in there? Brass grips for your CZ and maybe some holes in the slide? 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

The rules on paper seem kinda silly, but I don't think the changes drastically affect the real life look of the division. What are people really going to change now that this rule is in there? Brass grips for your CZ and maybe some holes in the slide? 

 

My guess is folks will copy limited as far as the slides go, there will be holes.  

 

Weight? 

 

Some folks prefer the lighter guns even now. 

[waktasz]

Yes, there will be holes. But does it matter?  Will people without holes be left behind until they get the drill press out?

[bgary]

2 hours ago, Twinkie said:

 

That's exactly what I was saying.

 

Influence is why the money gets spent. The equipment rules are reflecting what influencers want to see. No one wants to make products which aren't legal in USPSA. 

 

 

What you are "exactly" saying is that USPSA officers and directors accept manufacturer money - directly or indirectly - as part of our rules-making process.

 

I'm saying you're dead wrong.

 

The money that comes in from manufacturers is in the form of sponsor fees and ad buys.  The money does not buy them ANY influence - it's purely transactional.  Want to sponsor a stage?  Here's what it costs. Want to put a full-page ad in our magazine?  Here's what it costs.  Period.

 

In point of fact, we don't even exercise any preference.  There are times when a "big name" company comes in late and wants to sponsor a stage or a match after all the opportunities are taken.  Too bad, so sad, step up earlier next time.  the sponsor-money or ad-money from Joe Bob's Sportswear Emporium is exactly the same to us - and has exactly the same "influence" - as the money from Big Name Gun Manufacturer. 

 

When you use words like "kickback, access, favors", you're making an accusation which is not only untrue, it's potentially harmful to the reputation of the org I (and presumably you) love. Same as when you say "the equipment rules [reflect] what the influencers want to see".  You're saying we - *I* - can be bought, and I don't take that lightly.  The equipment rules reflect what we, the elected representatives of the members, feel is the best set of competitive options for those members, present and future, given that equipment and interests are changing every day.

 

The other thing I'd add is.... I highly doubt manufacturers are paying a lot of attention to USPSA.  We have ~35,000 members, of whom maybe ~25,000 are active in a year, and those are spread across eight different divisions.  Even if a manufacturer wanted to sell something to every active member, the total number we're talking about isn't even shipment of guns, let alone a production run, from their perspective.  *we* think we're bigtime, but... to them, we're a rounding error in the marketing plan. 

 

Nobody is going to pay USPSA to change a rule.  They're going to build the guns that they think will appeal to the broadest (and most profitable) market, and its OUR job to try to keep up with the changes and decide if they're good for our sport.  And even if they were willing to spend the money to try to buy influence?  We wouldn't take it.  It's not what we do.

 

Bruce

[PatJones]

Why is production the only division that causes people to get their panties in a bunch? Most people shoot in other divisions anyway, I do.

When they allowed you to use non-OEM hammers and whatnot in production division a couple years back, you would have thoughts sky was falling.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[driver8M3]

I'm shocked that they didn't please all 34,500 members.

 

To recap the equipment-related changes:

1. Not a single gun that was legal last week is now illegal (and don't discount how important this is, as it can't be said for all past changes...anyone remember the trigger weight debacle?)
2. Not a single gun that was competitive last week is no longer competitive.
3. The changes make enforcement of the equipment rules for match staff a bit easier.
4. The changes make compliance with the rules for shooters a bit easier.

I think they did a pretty good job.

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Why is production the only division that causes people to get their panties in a bunch? Most people shoot in other divisions anyway, I do.

When they allowed you to use non-OEM hammers and whatnot in production division a couple years back, you would have thoughts sky was falling.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

 

I think the hammer dill was more how it was done, than that it was done.  If I recall correctly, there were rules in the rulebook that DNROI just changed on a whim (not as the rulebook dictated) and allowed people to break, while others were playing within the rules as written in the book.  So it kinda pissed off the rule followers.  It has been a bit and I could have it wrong, but that is how  I am remembering it

[RJH]

1 minute ago, driver8M3 said:

I'm shocked that they didn't please all 34,500 members.

 

To recap the equipment-related changes:

1. Not a single gun that was legal last week is now illegal (and don't discount how important this is, as it can't be said for all past changes...anyone remember the trigger weight debacle?)
2. Not a single gun that was competitive last week is no longer competitive.
3. The changes make enforcement of the equipment rules for match staff a bit easier.
4. The changes make compliance with the rules for shooters a bit easier.

I think they did a pretty good job.

 

 

I think this is a pretty good summation 

[jowbow]

2 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

I'm shocked that they didn't please all 34,500 members.

 

To recap the equipment-related changes:

1. Not a single gun that was legal last week is now illegal (and don't discount how important this is, as it can't be said for all past changes...anyone remember the trigger weight debacle?)
2. Not a single gun that was competitive last week is no longer competitive.
3. The changes make enforcement of the equipment rules for match staff a bit easier.
4. The changes make compliance with the rules for shooters a bit easier.

I think they did a pretty good job.

Well stated. Count me as a pleased member.

[nasty618]

 

If anyone cared to take a look at things other than just the BOD minutes or the 2020 rule change  (i.e. Mr Foley's presentation), then they clearly saw the direction the leadership has been taking the organization and is intending to take it going forward.  

 

The main goals seemed to be increasing the revenue and growing the numbers of participants. And it appears that the leadership is well ahead of their intended targets. 

It's only natural that they will be catering to the broader masses, newer shooters, major sponsors and industry partners.  They will not be catering to the top 5 or 10 percent of the serious shooters whose goal is compete at a high level, with everything that is attached to that.  

The lower the skill and level of participation, the more emphasis is put on "what's the best gun?", "how light is your trigger?" and all the meaningless modifications like gas pedals and slide ports. The higher the skill, the less worries one has about various equipment lipstick and the more focus is put on the actual skill development. 

[rustychev]

7 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

If anyone cared to take a look at things other than just the BOD minutes or the 2020 rule change  (i.e. Mr Foley's presentation), then they clearly saw the direction the leadership has been taking the organization and is intending to take it going forward.  

 

The main goals seemed to be increasing the revenue and growing the numbers of participants. And it appears that the leadership is well ahead of their intended targets. 

It's only natural that they will be catering to the broader masses, newer shooters, major sponsors and industry partners.  They will not be catering to the top 5 or 10 percent of the serious shooters whose goal is compete at a high level, with everything that is attached to that.  

The lower the skill and level of participation, the more emphasis is put on "what's the best gun?", "how light is your trigger?" and all the meaningless modifications like gas pedals and slide ports. The higher the skill, the less worries one has about various equipment lipstick and the more focus is put on the actual skill development. 

This is a very valid point and even though some of us who are much deeper into the sport may or may not like it it is the masses in d c and b that probably pay for and do most of the work for the matches we all shoot as there just aren't enough A M and GMs

[nasty618]

16 minutes ago, rustychev said:

even though some of us who are much deeper into the sport may or may not like it it is the masses in d c and b that probably pay for and do most of the work for the matches we all shoot as there just aren't enough A M and GMs

 

Agreed!  And even the top level sponsored shooters, the really good guys who folks tend to listen to (i am not talking about the discount code pushers) will also be catering to their sponsors.  Not to mention, it's probably a much better deal for a sponsor to give a 10% discount to a lower level shooter who will then flood every Area page and all of their IG and FB friends feeds with the brand's name, wear a "sponsored" jersey at every L1 match and talk to all the other new shooters to help promote their "sponsor".

 

So that leaves a pretty narrow band of serious people who might feel like their favorite sport and specific division is getting stomped on by these new changes.  Do they matter?  I mean... One would hate to think that they dont matter, but realistically?  They just dont. They may bitch and moan, but will still pay the membership and the match fees and will keep practicing.... if only for the simple joy of crushing the "sponsored" shooters.  

 

Disclaimer: the above is an opinion, not a statement of fact  

 

[fishhunter3]

at just shy of 48 oz the 92X would become legal, 

 

[waktasz]

55 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

Agreed!  And even the top level sponsored shooters, the really good guys who folks tend to listen to (i am not talking about the discount code pushers) will also be catering to their sponsors.  Not to mention, it's probably a much better deal for a sponsor to give a 10% discount to a lower level shooter who will then flood every Area page and all of their IG and FB friends feeds with the brand's name, wear a "sponsored" jersey at every L1 match and talk to all the other new shooters to help promote their "sponsor".

 

So that leaves a pretty narrow band of serious people who might feel like their favorite sport and specific division is getting stomped on by these new changes.  Do they matter?  I mean... One would hate to think that they dont matter, but realistically?  They just dont. They may bitch and moan, but will still pay the membership and the match fees and will keep practicing.... if only for the simple joy of crushing the "sponsored" shooters.  

 

Disclaimer: the above is an opinion, not a statement of fact  

 

 

I promise you, none of the top guys give a s#!t about this new rule change stomping on their favorite division.

[nasty618]

7 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I promise you, none of the top guys give a s#!t about this new rule change stomping on their favorite division.

 

I was not talking about the top guys though....  I was talking about serious guys.  But i agree and feel that your concise presentation is much better. 

[waktasz]

I don't think the serious guys care either. I do think the guys that like to tinker will end up spending money (I will, lol) but I think most people recognize it's for little benefit. 

[MemphisMechanic]

14 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I don't think the serious guys care either. I do think the guys that like to tinker will end up spending money (I will, lol) but I think most people recognize it's for little benefit. 

If I had a 44oz gun and some experience / common sense, I wouldn’t be rushing to add weight that it doesn’t need. That’s for sure.

[nasty618]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I don't think the serious guys care either.

 

i wonder about that... there were at least a few serious guys on the PSTG forums and on here that were participating in the discussion of the latest changes. Not to mention the previous discussions of other rule changes like gas pedals and potential mag capacity changes. .. But ultimately yes, i think we agree on this. 

[waktasz]

13 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

If I had a 44oz gun and some experience / common sense, I wouldn’t be rushing to add weight that it doesn’t need. That’s for sure.

 

I can get some prototype heavy parts/light slides and I'm definitely looking forward to trying them out  

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

If I had a 44oz gun and some experience / common sense, I wouldn’t be rushing to add weight that it doesn’t need. That’s for sure.

if I had a 44oz minor gun, I might be trying to lighten it up, lol. I'd at least do some testing.

[ck1]

This goes all the way back to page 4, but those who think or are saying power factor doesn't matter as far as equity is concerned are absolutely kidding themselves and suspending reality. Sorry, but that's physics, try not to be butt-hurt about it. 

Most off-the-shelf 9mm (American Eagle, S&B, etc) is 140+pf out of a 4" barrel, so if a competitor could clone themselves and shoot off-the-shelf stuff vs their clone shooting their 130ish pf reloads, the clone would have an advantage every single time. Yes, I've shot 140+ stuff vs 130ish stuff on the clock, it's not imaginary, it's science. I'm not saying that shooting softer ammo is going to turn a D-class shooter into a GM, I just think it's silly to believe it doesn't have an effect on performance (if it didn't, there wouldn't need to be any rules about it).

 

Anyways, the reason I brought it up in the first place is that the Feb.14th attached image from the BOD minutes is perhaps in some ways more telling about how some of the new rules were arrived upon than any of the presentations and such... https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20200214_9 Attached Image.pdf

Particularly, the box in the top-right corner of the page (98.3% of Level 1 matches have no equipment check or chrono), and, at the top "There have to be some enforceable controls.", then, towards the middle of the page "What is unenforceable?".

Just my take, but looks like they decided that the newer firearms models + options coming to the market were starting to get out of control to the point where it was getting debatable what firearms-specific rules could/should actually be enforced, so they decided to open things up in order to have less gray-area to try and enforce, and not require every RO and RM to be a firearms-model minutia expert. So in effect, they managed to move more of the firearms-related stuff into the "enforceable" category, which is generally good and I agree with.

That said, I still think they could have used a scalpel instead of a machete with some of the changes, particularly where Production is concerned. I don't think they had to effectivly tear the weight rules up and make the weight ceiling high enough to allow pretty much anything, or the same thing with the slide-milling stuff, the "Production" rules were already very very far from "stock off-the-shelf guns", I don't think a "well, since it's tough to enforce, let's just allow whatever" approach was warranted. I think they could've found a way to let the "Gucci-Glocks" play in without opening the door for folks to turn their Production guns into "L10 Minor race guns".

 

Now back to that 98.3% figure again... I guess there really isn't an easy way to enforce power factor at club-level matches short of a mandate of some sort, but requiring the local guys setting up matches to also have to set up and monitor a chrono would just add too much extra work. For now I guess the honor system is all we've got. Sadly though, from what I've seen over the years, I bet if there were suddenly chrono's at every club-level match, there would be quite a few folks going home early or shooting for no score, many of them with fancy shirts covered in 5% off logos lol  

[usmc1974]

On 3/2/2020 at 8:35 PM, HCH said:

At this point, is there really any reason to keep L10, SS, and Production separate? 

And, maybe include revolver?

[tdp88]

14 hours ago, bgary said:

 

 

 

The other thing I'd add is.... I highly doubt manufacturers are paying a lot of attention to USPSA.  We have ~35,000 members, of whom maybe ~25,000 are active in a year, and those are spread across eight different divisions.  Even if a manufacturer wanted to sell something to every active member, the total number we're talking about isn't even shipment of guns, let alone a production run, from their perspective.  *we* think we're bigtime, but... to them, we're a rounding error in the marketing plan. 

 

Nobody is going to pay USPSA to change a rule.  They're going to build the guns that they think will appeal to the broadest (and most profitable) market, and its OUR job to try to keep up with the changes and decide if they're good for our sport.  And even if they were willing to spend the money to try to buy influence?  We wouldn't take it.  It's not what we do.

 

 

I don't think the manufacturers are losing much sleep over us but the Dan Wesson DWX, Shadow 2, Glock 34, and especially the new Legion show that manufacturers at least pay attention to the competition world. Also, you have to understand that it looks suspicious to the masses when arbitrary numbers (45oz) are placed on a division only to be changed a short time later. The previous weight limit was set to essentially screw over metal guns and the new one is also pointless because a 59oz minor gun serves no purpose in our sport. Although I don't personally care because I shoot a 34 and will continue to do so, I can certainly understand the frustration of those who spent a lot of time and money making weight, only for it to not matter. It would be nice if in the future, these rule changes occurred at the beginning of the off season rather than right before the season starts up and everyone has already sorted out gear for the year. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by tdp88

[ck1]

19 minutes ago, tdp88 said:

 It would be nice if in the future, these rule changes occurred at the beginning of the off season rather than right before the season starts up and everyone has already sorted out gear for the year. 

Word.

[Ted Murphy]

It’s funny what I got accused  already because of these rules.
 

Heck, one guy at a shoot this weekend flatly accused me that my shooting glasses (that I paid full retail for) were freebies. I guess I need to start carrying receipts. 
 

I doubt many if any gun company people  know me or know that I am an Area Director. . I bet they wouldn’t know me even if they ran me over with their golf cart at a match. 

FYI  I shoot a Glock 17  in production. The Glock was in fact free, but that’s   because I won my division in a GSSF match last year and got a certificate- and1099. 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Ted Murphy