Match etiquette/ expectation question. Opinions requested.

[-JCN-]

The lazy shooter thread had me wondering and wanting opinions. 
 

Am I a dick? The answer is probably yes. But hear me out. 
 

When I’m at a match, I work. I run the timer, I run the tablet, I have a paster gun. I’ll sometimes run the tablet and paste at the same time. When the match is over, I put on work gloves and tear things down with my squad. I am never the first one to leave.

 

But... I’m a newer shooter and stage planning is my weakness. So I like to get to a match a little early and really try and lock down a stage plan and visuals.

 

I don’t want to help set up stages. But I think some people think that because I’m physically there I should want to set things up rather than rehearse plans in my head. 
 

So if the crew is setting up Stage 2, I might be stalking Stage 1. I am not running ahead to help set up Stage 3 and I don’t really want to. I would rather arrive later like normal people do without any expectation to set up. 

 

Am I a dick? People who show up at normal times and don’t help set up aren’t considered so. 
 

 

[Sarge]

I have been an MD for a long time. If I see you at a local match early and me and my crew are busting our ass to set up you are going to be expected to help. I shoot one match occasionally that has same day setup and if you show up at any time prior to the shooters meeting you WILL be directed to report to a bay to set up.

  So my advice is don’t be a dick and show up closer to start time so workers don’t see you walking stages while they are working so hard they will be wore out by shooting time.

[Edwards30]

I would guess it just depends on your match.  At ours they have been behind on starting each time I have gone but no one has ever gone to help them that is participating.

I am also newer, so next time I think I will make a point to see if I can help out.

[MemphisMechanic]

@-JCN- my two cents is that if you’re there, you’ll be expected to help. If you aren’t, you won’t.

Pick a simple plan and let the other guys do more complicated things: Your goal at ANY skill level is to choose a plan which you can confidently execute well 9.5 times out of 10. What you’re capable of executing with such consistency will elevate over time. Of course.

 

But for now? Keep it simple. Choose the straightforward plans, shoot targets from as close as you can get, and rely on executing them well to help elevate your finish.

 

Far too many novices put a lot of pressure on themselves to sift the BEST stage plan out of the organizational mess of options. Whereas experienced shooters will often choose different plans because they are trying to leverage their strongsuits and minimize their weak ones.

[stick]

5 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@-JCN- my two cents is that if you’re there, you’ll be expected to help. If you aren’t, you won’t.

Pick a simple plan and let the other guys do more complicated things: Your goal at ANY skill level is to choose a plan which you can confidently execute well 9.5 times out of 10. What you’re capable of executing with such consistency will elevate over time. Of course.

 

But for now? Keep it simple. Choose the straightforward plans, shoot targets from as close as you can get, and rely on executing them well to help elevate your finish.

 

Far too many novices put a lot of pressure on themselves to sift the BEST stage plan out of the organizational mess of options. Whereas experienced shooters will often choose different plans because they are trying to leverage their strongsuits and minimize their weak ones.

Memphis nailed it!

And don't change your strategy after watching one or two shooters shoot the stage.

As for the other question, Don't show up super early and not help out.

 

Here's what Mike Seeklander said to us in a class.  You're not ready to shoot a stage until you can turn your back to the stage and shoot the stage in your head without looking at the stage.

[AverageJoeShooting]

just shoot matches where set up and tear down isnt required.  ALL the matches i shoot are like that.

 

[SGT_Schultz]

9 hours ago, -JCN- said:

When I’m at a match, I work. I run the timer, I run the tablet, I have a paster gun. I’ll sometimes run the tablet and paste at the same time. When the match is over, I put on work gloves and tear things down with my squad. I am never the first one to leave.

 

But... I’m a newer shooter and stage planning is my weakness. So I like to get to a match a little early and really try and lock down a stage plan and visuals.

 

Do less of what you do during the match so you have adequate time to prepare.  It's natural for many people to fall back and do nothing when they notice a hard charger in their squad.

 

I'm not saying to do nothing either, just saying to dial it down a notch.

[robchavous]

As others have said scale back a bit during the match. Take advantage of your 5 min walkthrough before the stage starts. If possible don't do anything when you're a few shooters from your turn.

Walking stages morning of is dependent on the match. My club builds all the stages the weekend before and the only thing done morning of is staple targets and put out steel. There's usually plenty of time for most people to check out stages before we get started if they want.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Nathanb]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

I have been an MD for a long time. If I see you at a local match early and me and my crew are busting our ass to set up you are going to be expected to help. I shoot one match occasionally that has same day setup and if you show up at any time prior to the shooters meeting you WILL be directed to report to a bay to set up.

  So my advice is don’t be a dick and show up closer to start time so workers don’t see you walking stages while they are working so hard they will be wore out by shooting time.

100 percent agree.  By the time you get there I’ve probably already been there for at least an hour finishing set up. The only thing that tops this for me is the people who wait until I’m done then say can I give you a hand like they didn’t just stand there for a half hour watching me struggle to get finished 

[motosapiens]

I get there 30 mins before everyone else, set up a stage and get it done early so I have time to at least look at all the other stages. I'm generally early for everything tho.

 

I don't think the OP is a dick. I think helping tear down is probably more important than helping set up, because it's hot and everyone is tired. Mrs Moto and I often set up our stage completely by ourselves, but it's not that hard, although having 1 or 2 others to lend a hand is always welcome.

[jwhittin]

In general, everyone should show up at setup time and help setup at least one stage.  After that you can do a early walk through.   
 

 

[Bagellord]

If you're there early, and they need the help, you should pitch in to help. I can say with almost 100% certainty that the folks doing the setup are well aware of you walking through and not helping, and there's probably some judging going on.

[zzt]

58 minutes ago, jwhittin said:

In general, everyone should show up at setup time and help setup at least one stage.  After that you can do a early walk through.   
 

 

 

Waaay too many people for that to work out effectively.  Four or five is plenty unless it is an all steel stage.  The stage designer cannot effectively manage more than that.

 

I see the same thing at work days.  They are scheduled from 9 to 1.  So many people show up they cannot be managed effectively.  Some end up standing around watching or looking for anything to do.  I bring a complete set of tools, because there is never enough to go around.  The good part is we always finish everything by 10:30 or 11.

Edited July 3, 2020 by zzt

[Bagellord]

 

29 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Waaay too many people for that to work out effectively

 

That's part of the reason we do our match setup the day before with a smaller crew.

[aandabooks]

My main club (I'm the registration/treasurer) handles this very easy and we have a 6 stage match on the ground in usually under 2 hours.  

 

Saturday we get there to setup at 8am with a 10am shoot time.  Usually a few of us go the night before to build targets.  Show up at 8am and help setup get you the match for $5.  Don't setup and pay $15

 

Sunday the shooters that helped setup on Saturday can shoot again for $5 even if they switch divisions.  First time Sunday shooters are $15 and a returning shooter is $10 unless they switch division then they are $15.

 

We normally have 25-30 people setting up and sometimes it almost more help than we really need.

 

Sunday tear down is the finishing squads tears down the stage and brings everything to front of the bay.

 

For the OP, if you are at a club that struggles to setup in a timely manner, don't show up so early and not help.  Show up a half hour before shooting time and walk stages then.  During the match stop doing everything when the guy 2 slots ahead of you is up.  Then you have his scoring, the guy ahead of you and your prep time to finalize your stage plan.  

 

We have a couple guys at our club that will be there an hour to 1 1/2 hours early that don't setup but want to walk stages.  Their choice and their money but it really kind of pisses off the setup guys that are trying to get a stage on the ground and one of them is walking around air gunning and the targets/walls aren't even staked down yet.

 

 

[JWBaldree]

I dunno on this, there are a lot of variables that go into people's perception of your being a douche or not. How many people are setting up while you are walking stages? If only a few are trying to put everything together while everyone else is goofing off or planning to win the first prize lear jet (that's first prize at every match, right?) then yes, you are a dick. If the set up crew is looking for things to do or eating donuts while they are gossiping, with no stress involved, and everyone knows that you will be a work-a-holic the rest of the day then no, you are not a douche. Some examples at our club:

 

Me personally, I live 100 minutes away and am not a morning person. For our normal USPSA and 3 gun that I am not match director for, I like to stroll in as late as possible, finish waking up with a Dutch Bros blended carmelizer and a pop tart, and everyone knows I will be working like a rabid dog the rest of the day and will be tearing down 2 - 3 stages at the end of the day. I'm the last one to leave. The USPSA and 3 gun matches that I do MD, I have to be up by 5am to get stuff going. Grr.

 

I also MD our Wednesday steel matches. They start at 4pm, so I have no problem finishing my Dutch Bros. before I get everyone going on set up. First one there, last to leave. When the guys that MD and do most of the setup / teardown for our USPSA and 3 gun show up, I expect them to shoot, BS a little, and then leave. Usually a few will stay and help tear down, and that is nice of them, but not expected. They do enough as it is.

 

Our club is fortunate in that out of say 30 regular members, at least 12 will be there on the morning matches pitching in and getting stuff done, and at least 12 will be tearing down down at the end of the day. Most know who likes to do what, and the world turns as it should. We do have a few douche bags though. The guys that want to walk stages while they are being built and do nothing to help. The guys that can't seem to show up in time for registration. Usually these dicks are informed of their douchiness and told to get out of the way or just not allowed to play when excessively tardy.

 

Every club has a different vibe. You just need to figure yours out.

[DKorn]

I don’t think you’re a jerk for not helping setup, but it really depends on the culture of the specific match/club. 
 

If the expectation is “we need help setting up the morning of, and if you’re here, please try to help,” then you should help if you show up early. 
 

If the expectation is “most stuff is already set up and a handful of people are going to hang targets and make last minute tweaks,” then offering to help would be nice but not required.

[Joe4d]

then there is also the Oneguyitis,,,
A MD that cant delegate, micro manages everything, keeps the stage layouts a secret, wiith only one copy of the stages that he wont let anyone look at., runs himself ragged . Help that does come early stands around most of the time with no direction,, and then next time dont bother showing up early at all. 
Then said match directors seem to be the first ones to boo hoo they dont get any help.

But to the op,, showing up early and doing walkthroughs while folks are building stages is a dick move.
If I was MD I would put the range off limits until after the shooters brief to non registered help. 
You pre walks probably arnt helping you much anyways. Shouldnt take more than 5 minutes and a few trips pasting and watching a couple runs to get a game plan,,

[egd5]

I'll add another thing to think about. I have learned more about stage planning by helping build stages than almost anything else. As you're building there is invariably discussion about the best way to shoot it.

[zzt]

Not me.  I learn move about stage planning by watching how GMs and Ms plan.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, egd5 said:

I'll add another thing to think about. I have learned more about stage planning by helping build stages than almost anything else. As you're building there is invariably discussion about the best way to shoot it.

 

and oftentimes adjustments to the stage based on those discussion, lol.

[rustychev]

At my local club I am the RM/practiscore guy/registration guy/embedded RO/stage designer/sometimes MD/classifier picker.  

 

Shooting time is 9 or when all stages are set up whatever is later and we do have a few people that show up to walk stages as they are being built, we dont have many.  The ones we do have get looks from the guys who are working.

 

I as RM I dont give out stage plans I am lucky to have guys who bring stages and set them up I do try to walk them for safety and rules and as long as they are ok I dont mess with them.  I also no longer stress about getting started on time as my set up crew knows who helps and who dose not.  I have also become less accommodating to last minuets requests by the non helpers and people that show up at the last second before registration close.   This year I have also slowed way down on building my own stages because I just dont have time to build good ones unless I show up before 6AM.

 

PLEASE HELP SETUP if you are on the range.  This sport only works if everyone helps both during the match and before. If you are over loaded during the match hand off the pad.    I go into many stages with nothing more than the 5 minuet walk thru because before the match all I have time for is a safety walk thru.  Yes it sucks so I understand where OP is coming from but that is also why I have backed off on building my own stages. 

[IHAVEGAS]

If I have to ask myself if I am being a dick, then it is certain that I am being a dick.

 

I sympathize with the desire to spend extra time on stage plans. 

[AverageJoeShooting]

55 minutes ago, rustychev said:

At my local club I am the RM/practiscore guy/registration guy/embedded RO/stage designer/sometimes MD/classifier picker.  

 

Shooting time is 9 or when all stages are set up whatever is later and we do have a few people that show up to walk stages as they are being built, we dont have many.  The ones we do have get looks from the guys who are working.

 

I as RM I dont give out stage plans I am lucky to have guys who bring stages and set them up I do try to walk them for safety and rules and as long as they are ok I dont mess with them.  I also no longer stress about getting started on time as my set up crew knows who helps and who dose not.  I have also become less accommodating to last minuets requests by the non helpers and people that show up at the last second before registration close.   This year I have also slowed way down on building my own stages because I just dont have time to build good ones unless I show up before 6AM.

 

PLEASE HELP SETUP if you are on the range.  This sport only works if everyone helps both during the match and before. If you are over loaded during the match hand off the pad.    I go into many stages with nothing more than the 5 minuet walk thru because before the match all I have time for is a safety walk thru.  Yes it sucks so I understand where OP is coming from but that is also why I have backed off on building my own stages. 

5 mins is all you need. Really helps you develop a quick effective stage plan that you will stick to

[rustychev]

This true most of the time but not always.

Edited July 5, 2020 by rustychev