To keep the Forums alive - change coming to Classifieds - Poll added, please vote!

[louu]

58 minutes ago, B_Seehawer said:

The moderation here is EXACTLY why most people I know no longer come here.  God forbid you post a negative review on a forum “contributor” or sell too much stuff to fellow shooters for a great deal. 
 

I would be absolutely livid if I had posts nuked or sales pulled if I payed for access.  

+1 this place is nuts with the mods

[GrumpyOne]

11 minutes ago, B_Seehawer said:

That’s just the amount of members removed for selling too much stuff without posting “meaningful content” at others discretion.

Not true.

[MemphisMechanic]

But hilarious.

[arkadi]

How bad IPS vendor-locked this forum?

I would look into a cheeper hosting and running IPB software independently of them. That's just a PHP app. If they are willing to export, then it's one time $200 and optional $25 / 6-months for software updates. About $50 / month for a cloud VM and unknown amount for egress. Someone to keep an eye on it.

[Chillywig]

Just being nosey - but how much does it cost to keep Enos up and running?

[Sdlrodeo]

5 minutes ago, Chillywig said:

Just being nosey - but how much does it cost to keep Enos up and running?

This and how many active members? If it’s for profit, cool. If it’s not for profit, should be easy to figure out a reasonable annual recurring fee. 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, B_Seehawer said:

The moderation here is EXACTLY why most people I know no longer come here.  God forbid you post a negative review on a forum “contributor” or sell too much stuff to fellow shooters for a great deal. 
 

I would be absolutely livid if I had posts nuked or sales pulled if I payed for access.  

Exactly. Also not willing to pay for something that I can get banned from as easily as here.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, B_Seehawer said:

That’s just the amount of members removed for selling too much stuff without posting “meaningful content” at others discretion.

[Sarge]

Why not charge every member $1 a year and block access to non members? For a buck I could live with the moderation

Edited March 19, 2020 by Sarge

[Absocold]

Running a PHP board independently is a nightmare. Since it's the most common board it gets attacked and hacked A LOT. And when the email function gets hijacked and the board hosting provider notices that a bot is sending out gigabytes of shady emails they will throw a fit and shut the board off until you fix it. Keeping up with the board software updates, doing regular backups and fixing damage is a job. Ask me how I know. Never mind, don't ask me, I don't want flashbacks from my time in the forum wars.

 

However if you can find a host who's willing to carry your board AND do all the backend admin work, then you're usually ok. Trouble is finding a good one. Most good ones don't want the headache.

 

The other option is easier. Leave it where it is and find a new source of financial support. This board is uniquely suited to advertisements from the high-end gun industry, equipment sellers and competition suppliers. Give 'em a ringy ding and ask if they want a billboard on THE place for competitive action shooters and connoisseurs of fine firearms and gear.

[ima45dv8]

Now that the members who (through their own actions) have brought Forum Moderation upon themselves have expressed their feelings over it, let's get back to the question Brian asked.

 

Thanks... 

[Cuz]

I would gladly pay $10-$20 per year to be a member of this forum. Even for the little amount I use it. If you are not willing to contribute $10/year to keep it going, then I don’t think this forum needs you.

Just my worthless opinion.


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[moparnut88]

I’m on several forums and almost all of them are free for everything. But they all have ads throughout. I would like to see banner adds as a first option. I really don’t see how this platform hasn’t been used as a billboard to sell adds for big businesses yet. Assuming those options don’t fit the bill I’d rather have a annual fee for the whole forum access.


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[C_Tanner]

I would absolutely pay 20 dollars per year to gain access to the wealth of information here. Just say when. 

[caz41]

Honestly the $15/mo amount is far beyond what’s its worth and I see a very very small % of members who would pay it. That said, that amount or fairly similar per year is more reasonable. 
I also am not against a reasonable percentage of the sale as the amount either. 

[KyleJ]

I feel that $15/mo will just lead people to post their classifieds elsewhere. $180/yr to sell used firearms is pretty steep when Kenslist, Arfcom, Armslist, etc are all free. 

[thx1138jt]

While I am willing to pay $20 a year, hell I would pay $50 a year for this site, it is not a good solution. What got me to the site at first place is the wealth of information available and accessible. It would be difficult to get new users/members to join if payment is required before hand. 
 

Banner ads could work, or why not have a yearly donation drive ala Wikipedia?  $5, $10, $20 from decent number of member should cover cost. 

[Joe4d]

14 hours ago, louu said:

I really don't know why you don't just sell banner ads and have options for paid premium members like every other forum in the world. They all actually make money every month and is still free for most. I actually like the banner ads and sometimes buy stuff from them. 

yeh no kidding, non intrusive non video playing adds and links along the forum walls,
Charge fees to posters the forum dies.

13 hours ago, B_Seehawer said:

The moderation here is EXACTLY why most people I know no longer come here.  God forbid you post a negative review on a forum “contributor” or sell too much stuff to fellow shooters for a great deal. 
 

I would be absolutely livid if I had posts nuked or sales pulled if I payed for access.  

Most of time moderators are fine,,  but the review thing is odd,, perfectly ok to say XYZ is awsome,, but say you had a problem and thread gets locked..

Edited March 19, 2020 by Joe4d

[ClangClang]

This website has been a tremendous resource to me in my practical shooting "career" (lol) and the same for virtually everyone who has ever stepped foot into the forum. It's been 7 years since I registered my account and I probably lurked for a good 2-3 years prior to that. I would be gutted to see it disappear. There truly is no other forum (which I'm aware of) dedicated to practical/competitive shooting with even 1/10th the traffic, participants, etc. BE is a truly unique resource and if it were to be shut down, the wealth of information that would be lost is staggering.

As an internet denizen of 20+ years, and current employee in the technology/web application world, I can absolutely guarantee that charging an access fee to the general forum will ensure the forum's rapid death. The worst thing you could do is implement a change that would be rejected by the majority because most (but not all) people expect the internet to be free. It would dramatically lower site traffic which would instantly tank the value of the forum to advertisers. It would also tank the "value" of the forum to regular users, if the depth and breadth of knowledge here were to be significantly cut. Most people come here for advice/experience. If there's no one left to answer questions or discuss shooting, no one will bother posting at all.

I don't think the proposal as laid out in the OP would be successful. The Classified forum doesn't have nearly the traffic that would warrant $180/year in fees. Virtually no one would participate. Perhaps in early 2019 the Classifieds were busy enough to warrant a charge, but once the "new" moderation scheme was implemented, my perception is that utilization dropped dramatically. Only a person with access to the traffic logs can say for sure, but I know I spend less time on Enos than I used to. The Classifieds were the major draw that would encourage me to log in multiple times per day to hunt for good deals, because they would often be sold in mere minutes. Now I swing through much less frequently and see fantastic deals sit for days on end. People don't want to risk catching a ban due to subjective criteria, so they just don't list items here and use other forums instead. I know I've stopped posting items here unless they're truly USPSA specific, whereas I used to be unafraid to list any shooting-related items. And I don't think anyone could look at my posting history and argue that I've abused the classifieds or posted anything other than direct technical discussion of practical shooting, yet still, I don't use the Classifieds, ergo the entire forums, nearly as much anymore.

My humble suggestion for keeping the forums solvent:

 

• Implement banner ads to generate reliable base income. Targeted ads from your vendors and other firearms retails would be highly successful and be worth significant CPC to advertisers. I know I would click on an ad for a good sale on bullets/guns/etc.
• Tiered subscription services:
  • Free - Unlimited forum usage. Limit on stored PMs (50?). No post signature. 50 posts before Classified access, and thereafter limited to 1 post per month in the Classifieds. If possible with forum software, also limit to only 1 bump per week. Limit search to only 1 every 60 seconds (saves significant server resources).
  • Enthusiast - $5/month. Increase to 500 stored PMs. Immediate Classified access with 3 post per month limit, 1 bump per thread every 72 hours.
  • Supporter - $15/month. All ads hidden. For the real BE diehards who would happily pay any nominal amount to support the forums. No limit on PM storage. Special badge/icon to identify under their avatar. Dedicated forum only for Supporter level accounts. Immediate classified access, limit 10 posts per month, 1 bump per thread every 24 hours, perhaps allow editing longer than 24 hours? Would make it much easier to manage sales posts for an individual user.
  • Premium - $25/month, pre-paid annually. Same benefits as Supporter, plus 2 free tubs of slide glide each year and a 30 minute phone call once a year with Brian to ask a question relating to practical shooting, zen, mindset, philosophy, etc. I don't expect too many of these to sell, but it sure would be neat.
• When a Classified post is closed (i.e item is sold) auto-send a PM reminding the seller that donations, even 1% of the value of the sold items, help keep the forums afloat.
• Affiliate links to Amazon and other e-tailers (you might be doing this already, not sure)

 

This sort of arrangement preserves (maybe even enhances?) site traffic which is what keeps the forum valuable, generates both advertising and user revenue, and doesn't inhibit anyone from participating in the discussion of practical shooting. Users can stop worrying if their content to classifieds ratio is high enough to avoid being spanked by the mods.The mods themselves would have a significant reduction in their moderation responsibilities and make life easier.

I will remark that the one limit which I've seen implemented on other sites, but would urge you to avoid, are limitations on posting photos. For any pursuit relying on nuanced technical/mechanical detail (i.e. firearms), a picture is worth a thousand words. Keep the photo posting as pain-free and seamless as possible to ensure high value site content.

I know that I would absolutely sign up for the "Enthusiast" level account if it were structured similar to the above. The way to scale revenue up on the internet is keep the costs low and the conversions high. Lower fees entice far more people to spend money, resulting in far higher revenue. $5/month is fairly easy to swallow. $3/month would be even easier - perhaps $36/year annual fee if prepaid? And to put my money where my mouth is, I just purchased your book and a tub of Slideglide. (Note: I initially went to make a donation, but the donation site isn't SSL secured, so I wasn't about to enter my CC details. Made a purchase instead. Secure the donation site and I'll go make a donation as well).

For what it's worth, I did a quick calculation, and my (highly conservative) estimates show that Google AdSense would pay out ~$300/month.  A higher CTR/CPC (which would likely be the case for these forums, due to how targeted/specific the audience is) would result in a dramatically higher revenue.  Adsense would obviously not be the ideal choice for your advertising platform due to their anti-gun stance, but the indicative value remains.
 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by ClangClang

[Frankly]

Agree with above mostly, well presented.

 

Or walk away. You've done it a long time and it's had a great run compared to most internet communities but none of them last forever, the most engaging people come and go. Things get stale. Go out on top. There are almost no web presences that have lasted this long to be honest. Slate magazine maybe? 

 

Frankly I think the primary audience is 40+ to Boomer. The kids use social media, Reedit, etc. As much as I hate Facebook I'd rejoin it if I wanted to discuss this stuff and it might be more efficient (easier to post and link stuff, hands off management). And there has to be 10x more 3Gun stuff between all the pro shooter and company pages. 

 

I used to look here for questions but now my first choice is YouTube and then a broad search of the entire internet. If I ask a question here it's often ignored or not answered sufficiently so it's now a second or third choice. 

 

I don't really see a good solution to classifieds for higher end competition gear. It did draw me in when I'd be shopping but it's rare you find what you want. What things I've sold have always been at lower than expected prices. It's not that great. So why invest any energy into it? If you keep it running just nuke the obvious scammers and let everyone else be responsible adults? 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Frankly

[mikey_golds]

With the activity on this forum in general would integrating Google Adsense put a dent in it. I know a lot of us hate ads, but I gladly turn off Ad Blocker on sites I go to for free. 

[usmc1974]

$20 a year seems like a very small amount that's less than a box of shells. As long as Benos has a solid way of keeping track of who paid what. I enjoy coming here I've learned a lot from this place I really only associate with gun people and dog people. Just a thought

[Joe4d]

If the adds were just banners along the sides and not popups and videos, wouldnt need an add blocker.
I'd suggest doing a survey about adds. I bet the vast majority would have no issue with shooting related banner adds.

 

[Butterpuc]

With regards to what kind of ads will be shown as banners, the forum may not get to choose what ads are shown... I don't know that, never researched it. 

 

Also, I don't know that many gun related businesses have a big budget for advertising.  We may see ads we don't want to see.

[zzt]

Brian, I think the notion of charging per month for access to Classifieds is self defeating.  You have fixed costs for running the servers, and losing members, even paying members is not going to help.  Figure out you fixed costs, add a little margin, and charge that for a yearly subscription.

 

On another matter:  I have tried several times to donate on Classified and the Forums unsuccessfully.  Even allowing third party cookies and turning of all the tracker blockers, etc., I still cannot complete. There must be something in my settings blocking this.   If you will PM me your mailing address, I'd be happy to mail you a check.

 

If you decide on banner ads, I'll whitelist the site so I see them.  If you are just tired of running the Forums and want to quit, sell it to someone(s).  The Trapshooters forums did exactly that.  A bunch of dealers chipped in and now they run it.  The only change to the Classifieds was you were no longer permitted to sell new equipment.  That, quite understandably, was limited to paying Vendors.