Limited Major dying?

[rowdyb]

I do not miss solid walls. They made stages much harder.

 

And yes, lim major is decreasing in popularity. 

 

And in Jan 2024 we'll have "does the new 15rnd limit mean prod will grow?" threads I look fwd too

[THS]

Rowdy,   Production going to 15 is overdue and I’m looking forward to it.    Might even invest in a 34 for it.     
 

Assuming it goes to production 15 this is my prediction:

Production  15 is the new entry-level point.

carry optic and Limited optic become the two biggest divisions.
Open remains the racers place to go like F1.

Sadly the rest of them fade even more.

[konkapot]

I remember the prop tossing/monkey motions debate. Riding on a faux mining cart on a roller coaster, scooting yourself around on a flying saucer. 

 

There were two Nats in Bend two years in a row; not much inside of 20 yds, and not many clean targets. Traumatized me so bad that all I shot for the next several years in practice was partials and dot drills. 

 

 

[barry]

25 minutes ago, konkapot said:

I remember the prop tossing/monkey motions debate. Riding on a faux mining cart on a roller coaster, scooting yourself around on a flying saucer. 

 

There were two Nats in Bend two years in a row; not much inside of 20 yds, and not many clean targets. Traumatized me so bad that all I shot for the next several years in practice was partials and dot drills. 

 

 

Bend was a great nationals place. Where I learned how Damm cold it can get in the desert 

[outerlimits]

4 hours ago, barry said:

Bend was a great nationals place. Where I learned how Damm cold it can get in the desert 

Left the hotel at 0600…was 67 degrees.  Got to range in bend it was 27.

[JoeMKY]

I can see why it is, back when I wanted to get into limited, the STI guns in 40 was between 1k and 2k, now STI renamed it's self and makes nothing but 9mm, and any other place is now charging 3k+, unless you can find a used one from a range buddy or gun broker, you have to spend a pretty penny unless you went with the Rock Island Pro in 40 which is about 800 to shoot in limited major.

 

Mean while, you can pick up a gun with an optic from the local store and compete in limited optics and/or carry optics for 700 - 2k.

 

It's sad but it is what it is.  Now limited shooters can be as rare as revolver and single stack shooters..imo 

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, barry said:

Bend was a great nationals place. Where I learned how Damm cold it can get in the desert 

my dogs water dish froze on the summer solstice there.

[BritinUSA]

I made the mistake of thinking that the temperature near the hotel would be similar to the range.... Nope !

[GunBugBit]

Still ok with irons except in low lighting during evening practice matches.  Next gun will have an optic, thinking Athena with an SRO.

[SPINGE]

I got my start in competition shooting in Steel Challenge in '19 and hung out at the range nearly every weekend. Nobody there cared about .40 S&W. As a millennial I have seen plenty of gunstagram and influencer posts...nobody cares about .40 S&W. As an employee at a large auction company nobody cares about .40 S&W! .40 guns go for less money as do .40 some components. Back in '19 after wetting my feet with Steel Challenge I decided movement would be fun and did some Action Steel...guess what? Nobody cared about .40 S&W. After that I got the nerve to go to USPSA and compete with the gamers in their jerseys, salomons, and crazy 2011s. One of the guys I work with who is active here on BE and has made GM in a few divisions across SCSA and USPSA got me started with a rig and division suggestion for my first USPSA match. I did L imited M inor for ease of stage planning and not needing to reload. He told me I would "be scored minor" and when he told me about PF and scoring, I can still remember being absolutely stunned that a lot of guys used .40 S&W. I simply couldn't believe it.

 

After my first match in 2019 I continued shooting but stopped when C0VID got rough with primers. After a hiatus I got back into shooting a few months ago and now shoot almost every weekend. After coming back from the 2019-2020 days and knowing a bit more I got a new gun. An iron sighted 9mm since it will work well in Steel Challenge and USPSA. For USPSA I had the option of shooting Lim. Min. or dealing with tons of magazine changes and shooting PROD. I opted for the magazine changes in a MINOR only division and shoot PROD exclusively. Another high lever shooter coworker of mine does not care about .40 S&W and just shoots LIM. Min0r not caring about the scoring, that is how much he refuses the .40. The previously mentioned GM has .40s but hates loading it and hardly ever shoots them.

 

The MIN/MAJ debate is even influencing new purchases. I am now in the process of picking a new division and think Limited Optics will be what I do since its MINOR ONLY. With a 9mm USPSA LIM OP I can shoot in SCSA OPEN and even have a plate system done up to cover four divisions across both sports. In choosing the new gun I would love a high capacity iron sighted 9mm 2011 but don't want to go in a MIN/MAJ division, so I think LIM OP is the move. I really was considering LIMITED, as unlike so many my age I actually love iron sights, but the prospect of needing to do .40 for Major made me walk away from the idea. Let's face it .40 S&W is now a specialty boutique round. .40 S&W is literally being kept alive by USPSA Limited Division shooters, thats it. No other segment of the population cares about .40 S&W.  In 2019 I remember seeing a lot more .40 S&W shooters doing Limited. These days in the months I have been back the matches consist of a TON of CO and PCC, a good amount of OPEN, very very few PROD, and in the past five months I have seen only one SS shooter and two REVO shooters. Out of the few LIMITED Shooters I see (slightly more than PROD), a good deal shoot 9mm minor and DGAF about score. From 2019 to now the amount of limited and .40 shooters has fallen, at least at the matches I attend. Personally with current trends and the fact that 90% of my range brass is 9mm, it makes no sense for me to buy anything chambered for .40 S&W...a dying round. Someone said it earlier in this thread that they don't want to be the last one holding a multi-thousand dollar .40 pistol and tons of ammo to collect dust. I agree 100%. It's not the 1990s or early 2000s, .40 ain't hot and brass is harder to come by. Nobody wants to shoot irons either. Pair a round that nobody cares about with guys wanting to shoot dots instead of irons and you have the perfect recipe for Limited Major participation going away. Just like dots and "high capacity" magazines in CO killed irons and low capacity magazines in PROD. Times change.

 

 

 

TLDR: Nobody cares about .40 S&W. Limited Major is dying.

 

 

 

I have read this entire thread and appreciated everyones insights. I hope my rambling is semi-coherent and you get a bit of value from mine. These are just opinions and obviously some are hyperbolic. Oh, and I almost forgot NOBODY CARES ABOUT .40!

 

Respectfully

-SPINGE

[RJH]

8 hours ago, SPINGE said:

I got my start in competition shooting in Steel Challenge in '19 and hung out at the range nearly every weekend. Nobody there cared about .40 S&W. As a millennial I have seen plenty of gunstagram and influencer posts...nobody cares about .40 S&W. As an employee at a large auction company nobody cares about .40 S&W! .40 guns go for less money as do .40 some components. Back in '19 after wetting my feet with Steel Challenge I decided movement would be fun and did some Action Steel...guess what? Nobody cared about .40 S&W. After that I got the nerve to go to USPSA and compete with the gamers in their jerseys, salomons, and crazy 2011s. One of the guys I work with who is active here on BE and has made GM in a few divisions across SCSA and USPSA got me started with a rig and division suggestion for my first USPSA match. I did L imited M inor for ease of stage planning and not needing to reload. He told me I would "be scored minor" and when he told me about PF and scoring, I can still remember being absolutely stunned that a lot of guys used .40 S&W. I simply couldn't believe it.

 

After my first match in 2019 I continued shooting but stopped when C0VID got rough with primers. After a hiatus I got back into shooting a few months ago and now shoot almost every weekend. After coming back from the 2019-2020 days and knowing a bit more I got a new gun. An iron sighted 9mm since it will work well in Steel Challenge and USPSA. For USPSA I had the option of shooting Lim. Min. or dealing with tons of magazine changes and shooting PROD. I opted for the magazine changes in a MINOR only division and shoot PROD exclusively. Another high lever shooter coworker of mine does not care about .40 S&W and just shoots LIM. Min0r not caring about the scoring, that is how much he refuses the .40. The previously mentioned GM has .40s but hates loading it and hardly ever shoots them.

 

The MIN/MAJ debate is even influencing new purchases. I am now in the process of picking a new division and think Limited Optics will be what I do since its MINOR ONLY. With a 9mm USPSA LIM OP I can shoot in SCSA OPEN and even have a plate system done up to cover four divisions across both sports. In choosing the new gun I would love a high capacity iron sighted 9mm 2011 but don't want to go in a MIN/MAJ division, so I think LIM OP is the move. I really was considering LIMITED, as unlike so many my age I actually love iron sights, but the prospect of needing to do .40 for Major made me walk away from the idea. Let's face it .40 S&W is now a specialty boutique round. .40 S&W is literally being kept alive by USPSA Limited Division shooters, thats it. No other segment of the population cares about .40 S&W.  In 2019 I remember seeing a lot more .40 S&W shooters doing Limited. These days in the months I have been back the matches consist of a TON of CO and PCC, a good amount of OPEN, very very few PROD, and in the past five months I have seen only one SS shooter and two REVO shooters. Out of the few LIMITED Shooters I see (slightly more than PROD), a good deal shoot 9mm minor and DGAF about score. From 2019 to now the amount of limited and .40 shooters has fallen, at least at the matches I attend. Personally with current trends and the fact that 90% of my range brass is 9mm, it makes no sense for me to buy anything chambered for .40 S&W...a dying round. Someone said it earlier in this thread that they don't want to be the last one holding a multi-thousand dollar .40 pistol and tons of ammo to collect dust. I agree 100%. It's not the 1990s or early 2000s, .40 ain't hot and brass is harder to come by. Nobody wants to shoot irons either. Pair a round that nobody cares about with guys wanting to shoot dots instead of irons and you have the perfect recipe for Limited Major participation going away. Just like dots and "high capacity" magazines in CO killed irons and low capacity magazines in PROD. Times change.

 

 

 

TLDR: Nobody cares about .40 S&W. Limited Major is dying.

 

 

 

I have read this entire thread and appreciated everyones insights. I hope my rambling is semi-coherent and you get a bit of value from mine. These are just opinions and obviously some are hyperbolic. Oh, and I almost forgot NOBODY CARES ABOUT .40!

 

Respectfully

-SPINGE

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head. 

 

As a long time USPSA shooter, sometimes it is hard to see the changes happening outside USPSA.  It took me years to get where you are at now

[shred]

Now do .38 Supercomp. 

 

I could tell .40 was on the outs when the gun-retailer magazines I get for having a FFL started getting articles like "how do I get rid of these .40s in my display case?"  The covid-panic sold every gun so that helped.

 

The FBI giveth and the FBI taketh away.  Next time they need a scapegoat for losing a shootout everyone will rush back to the .40 again.  

 

Limited's numbers have been propped up by nowhere else for hicap irons to go.  If it drifts down to whatever people want to shoot it and have a reloader, who cares?

 

Although I'm kind of surprised 10mm is a thing again.

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Now do .38 Supercomp. 

 

I could tell .40 was on the outs when the gun-retailer magazines I get for having a FFL started getting articles like "how do I get rid of these .40s in my display case?"  The covid-panic sold every gun so that helped.

 

The FBI giveth and the FBI taketh away.  Next time they need a scapegoat for losing a shootout everyone will rush back to the .40 again.  

 

Limited's numbers have been propped up by nowhere else for hicap irons to go.  If it drifts down to whatever people want to shoot it and have a reloader, who cares?

 

Although I'm kind of surprised 10mm is a thing again.

 

Yep,, LImited/standard  stayed popular because it was the only place to shoot a reasonably priced full capacity gun. and because of Major scoring they needed to be in 40. 
While there were custom 2011's, Para 1640's Some witness platforms, and a handful of plastic 40's were fairly popular and competitive.  Even guns like the STI Eagle were under 2k. 
Now it seems all those guns are gone,,  due to low non competitive demand I would assume.
SO its a full custom,, but also now there is Production 15, and CO letting people load to capacity. or at least near it that will finish off Limited.
Which I guess is fine, things change. 1911's killed revolvers, double stacks killed 1911's ,  Hi cap 9's will kill off hicap major guns.

[SPINGE]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head. 

 

As a long time USPSA shooter, sometimes it is hard to see the changes happening outside USPSA.  It took me years to get where you are at now

Thank you for the kind words RJH.

 

Coming from an industry perspective and generational perspective I don't think it's a relevant round. 

 

I think it is hurting the participation of LTD. Due to its legacy I don't now that we see a LTD without .40 but I think that it is holding up participation. The guys I mentioned have had enough success and done so many matches they don't mind doing LTD MIN, but there are a whole bunch of guys like me, who want META setups who won't do it. We pick and choose divisions where 9mm is the only round or equally as viable. I don't want to load 9 major and want to do Limited more than Open, but would do Open before Limited with current rules. 

 

*dreams of LTD without major scoring so that the same multi-thousand dollar pistol is equally competitive in USPSA and SCSA*

[SPINGE]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Now do .38 Supercomp. 

 

I could tell .40 was on the outs when the gun-retailer magazines I get for having a FFL started getting articles like "how do I get rid of these .40s in my display case?"  The covid-panic sold every gun so that helped.

 

The FBI giveth and the FBI taketh away.  Next time they need a scapegoat for losing a shootout everyone will rush back to the .40 again.  

 

Limited's numbers have been propped up by nowhere else for hicap irons to go.  If it drifts down to whatever people want to shoot it and have a reloader, who cares?

 

Although I'm kind of surprised 10mm is a thing again.

 

Easy. The guys who really care shoot .38 SC. Some will pickup brass and/or buy it used, some will use virgin brass and leave it, and some have a 9 MAJOR gun for locals and a .38 SC for big matches. I have seen and know competitors who fall into each category. 

 

As someone who reloads I still don't want to do .40 S&W as most of my guns are 9 and most of the brass available on the ground where I shoot is also 9.

[SPINGE]

The sentiment on .40 seems to be the same across all spectrums of shooters, age groups, and collectors.

 

For shooters used Glocks go for waaay less than 9s or 45s.

 

Another great example is the S&W metal frames from before I was born and when I was a kid, the 9s go for more than the .40s by a longshot. The big daddy of them all are .40 caliber, but shoot the 10mm cartridge....because the 1006 is the FBI gun.

 

Another anecdote I can share is the H&K USP, for years whenever someone said we had a USP I would say, "let me guess a .40?" 85% of the time when we saw/see USPs, they are in fact .40. It became such a comical joke how everyone was dumping them. I'm not sure why its so prolific with that make and model, but a testament to the lack of love for .40 S&W.

 

It doesn't seem to matter if guys are shooters or collectors, old or young, nobody seems to like .40.

[Boomstick303]

11 hours ago, SPINGE said:

No other segment of the population cares about .40 S&W.  In 2019 I remember seeing a lot more .40 S&W shooters doing Limited.

 

This is the observation I made coming into the sport 4-5 years ago.  It was obvious by many factors that .40 S&W was on its way out.  Many on this forum would have you believe that has nothing to do with Limited numbers slipping over the years.  All LO is doing is putting that final nail in the coffin.  

 

People cry that creating these divisions is what is killing Limited?   Is it?  Or are people now switching to a division they probably would have shot all along for various reasons now those divisions exist?

 

Most people have limited income, and never had a desire to shoot open or Limited.  They tried to figure out a division they would best fit into for what they wanted from the game, period.  Now that there are more options, people are more free to shoot guns and play in divisions that interest them instead of being pigeon hold into some division.  Is that a bad thing?  Dudes crying about power divisions dying would lead you to believe that.  

 

I understand that power is one of the considerations given when USPSA was created.  No one is stopping anyone from shooting Major today.  Just as no one is stopping anyone from shooting revolver or single stack.  What has become very apparent is that most of the masses could care less about power.  Sorry the divisions you love no one wants to play in, but there are a lot of revolver and single stack guys to cry into your beer with.  

 

 

[SPINGE]

Someone said it earlier, when the world was using 13-rd GP-35s in 9mm and America was using 7-round 1911s in .45, it made more sense. The disparity between MAJOR and MINOR capacity/reloads wise in real cap divisions is a wash in my opinion, shoot and hit one reload where the stage design permits and it makes the most sense....if a reload is even needed. The scoring disparity between MAJOR and MINOR is still in full effect though. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by SPINGE

[SPINGE]

In terms of how the sport has evolved I will say that from what I shoot on weekends vs what I see online from the days of old, athletic performance obviously plays a much greater role today vs in the past. Movement is king and aggression is needed. A lot of shooters are crazy, watching how an M PROD moved and shot was wild. I am moving better than I used to but still not fast enough.

 

 

As to one of the competitors in this thread not seeing a Cooper tunnel his whole time shooting, I have seen two in the past couple of months. Not only was it a CT, but both had small ports and targets on either side that could only be engaged within the tunnel. One was very short and was atrocious for me. The other was a bit taller, much more manageable but at 6'3" 200 lbs still a chore. At my local matches the mix of speed and technicality does seem good. I see a lot of activators and moving targets which is fun. There are longer courses, technical courses, and high HF courses. The match directors do a great job and I feel very lucky! As someone shooting a 10-rd division it is obvious that the matches cater to PCC and CO. But locals need to cater to their base to have people come back to $pend $$$. Higher level matches are a different animal.

 

 

-SPINGE

[shred]

In the old days there was less random sprinting around, but more low ports, kneeling, prone, getting up again (the one and only stage I ever beat Grauffel on in Open had 3 separate prone ports), crawling through tubes, dragging stuff, scaling walls (look at rule 2.2.2 and see how often that gets used anymore-- when was the last time you had to go over a 5 foot wall in a USPSA match?), Rhodesian walls, etc, so foot speed was less of a thing, but the appendix rig fell out of favor due to liver bruising from going flying-squirrel prone too often...

[konkapot]

"The FBI giveth...." should be a bumper sticker. Or one of those tactical patches that tactical people wear on their faux body armor. Good stuff. 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, shred said:

In the old days there was less random sprinting around, but more low ports, kneeling, prone, getting up again (the one and only stage I ever beat Grauffel on in Open had 3 separate prone ports), crawling through tubes, dragging stuff, scaling walls (look at rule 2.2.2 and see how often that gets used anymore-- when was the last time you had to go over a 5 foot wall in a USPSA match?), Rhodesian walls, etc, so foot speed was less of a thing, but the appendix rig fell out of favor due to liver bruising from going flying-squirrel prone too often...

 

All that stuff would have been fun when I was younger.  Nowadays, I pass on any stage requiring prone or crawling.  Too old for that.

[RJH]

5 hours ago, shred said:

In the old days there was less random sprinting around, but more low ports, kneeling, prone, getting up again (the one and only stage I ever beat Grauffel on in Open had 3 separate prone ports), crawling through tubes, dragging stuff, scaling walls (look at rule 2.2.2 and see how often that gets used anymore-- when was the last time you had to go over a 5 foot wall in a USPSA match?), Rhodesian walls, etc, so foot speed was less of a thing, but the appendix rig fell out of favor due to liver bruising from going flying-squirrel prone too often...

 

 

LOL I tied you at a steel match once, highlight of my career 

 

Edited to clarify: I tied you on one stage at a steel match once, me and you were the only guys shooting irons to clear a stage. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by RJH

[shred]

17 hours ago, zzt said:

 

All that stuff would have been fun when I was younger.  Nowadays, I pass on any stage requiring prone or crawling.  Too old for that.

Yeah, that's probably why it died off in USPSA.  All the OGs in charge that thought that kind of stuff was cool in their 20s and 30s got older too.   I think there's a little too much pointless running around with nothing to do these days, but the kids are mostly the ones setting up stages now.

 

 

[shred]

15 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

LOL I tied you at a steel match once, highlight of my career 

 

Edited to clarify: I tied you on one stage at a steel match once, me and you were the only guys shooting irons to clear a stage.