Limited Major dying?

[shred]

USPSA just needs to drop the dumb "must have a dot" rule for LO and CO.  It won't matter one bit to the finals, but makes for much better catch-alls for new shooters than Limited.

 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, shred said:

USPSA just needs to drop the dumb "must have a dot" rule for LO and CO.  It won't matter one bit to the finals, but makes for much better catch-alls for new shooters than Limited.

 

agree 100%. there is no longer really any chance of stoeger showing up with iron sights and embarrassing the top CO shooters and making the division look dumb.

[Climbhard]

On 10/25/2023 at 5:13 AM, Makicjf said:

Will Prod 15 syphon off the Lim Min shooters at the local level?  If that's the case, it will only leave the dedicated Limited shooters in limited.

  Jason

Edit: I forgot to avoid A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want

I dont get 15 round production.  What good is that really?  two arrays of 8 and 8 or 8 and 7 with steel thrown in.... you're still reloading.

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, Climbhard said:

I dont get 15 round production.  What good is that really?  two arrays of 8 and 8 or 8 and 7 with steel thrown in.... you're still reloading.

if your local stages are all 8 round arrays, I'm sorry. that sucks. Our stages rarely break down that way. Stages at nationals and good area matches rarely break down that way.

[Climbhard]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

if your local stages are all 8 round arrays, I'm sorry. that sucks. Our stages rarely break down that way. Stages at nationals and good area matches rarely break down that way.

The last two years at SS nationals most, not all but most, it was 7-8 rounds per position with more than one piece of steel.

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, Climbhard said:

The last two years at SS nationals most, not all but most, it was 7-8 rounds per position with more than one piece of steel.

I shot 2021 and 2022 ss nationals (and brought home 3rd place senior trophies, hooray!). Obviously when you only have 8 rounds in the gun, you'll tend to find away to make a position 7-8 rounds. i remember lots of places where I could only shoot 4-6 rounds from a single spot, then move a few steps and shoot another 2-4 rounds.

 

I bet if you shot those same stages with 15 rounds in the gun you'd find yourself shooting 12-13-14 rounds pretty frequently between reloads.

Edited November 3, 2023 by motosapiens

[shred]

Used to be the SS Nats when it coexisted with the SS Classic was highly tilted towards major guns with a lot of 6 round positions.  It's only gotten somewhat better since although I didn't shoot the last two.

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, shred said:

Used to be the SS Nats when it coexisted with the SS Classic was highly tilted towards major guns with a lot of 6 round positions.  It's only gotten somewhat better since although I didn't shoot the last two.

Heck, some of those guys thought using 8 round mags was gaming!

[MHicks]

One of our local matches acouple of years ago had  4 distinct 8 round positions. Starting unloaded.  Shootin SS major either throw in an extra reload or slidelock every 8 rounds.

[zzt]

After reading all the 15-rounds will be great in Prod posts, I still don't buy it.  I voted no. Not because I wanted it to stay at ten.  I wanted full capacity.  BS on it will start an arms race.  So what if it does.  17 rounds is a big improvement on 15.  17+1 is even better.  It gives you more options on where to reload.  It lets you press a little harder.

 

Then there are those hoser stages with two 8-round arrays you can shoot without moving.  Sure, they put a second shooting box out there to make it legal.  Naturally, no one uses them.  Designed by hi-cap shooters with no regard for Prod or SS (yes, we still have some).  Standing reloads suck.

 

Could I design stages where 15 was practical.  Of course.  Will everyone?  No.  That is the problem.  Young guys design stages with lots of running.  GMs design more technical stages.  The most interesting stage designs are when you see shooters exercising 3 or 4 different stage plans.  Boring is when everyone shoots it the same way.  Then it is who can run the fastest.

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, zzt said:

After reading all the 15-rounds will be great in Prod posts, I still don't buy it.  I voted no. Not because I wanted it to stay at ten.  I wanted full capacity.  BS on it will start an arms race.  So what if it does.  17 rounds is a big improvement on 15.  17+1 is even better.  It gives you more options on where to reload.  It lets you press a little harder.

I think 17 rounds would not be any worse than 15, but I don't see it as significantly better either.

Quote

Young guys design stages with lots of running.  GMs design more technical stages.  The most interesting stage designs are when you see shooters exercising 3 or 4 different stage plans.  Boring is when everyone shoots it the same way.  Then it is who can run the fastest.

you're right and wrong here. I'm 62 and i often design stages with a bunch of running, but the primary focus for me is to build a stage where the top local gm's choose different plans. I have literally never seen a stage where 'who can run the fastest' is a thing. Even at my advanced age I can move my feet, and whether it's a stand and shoot or a 75 yard movement stage, I still get beat by the same old fat GM that shoots well and doesn't waste time.

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

After reading all the 15-rounds will be great in Prod posts, I still don't buy it.  I voted no. Not because I wanted it to stay at ten.  I wanted full capacity.  BS on it will start an arms race.  So what if it does.  17 rounds is a big improvement on 15.  17+1 is even better.  It gives you more options on where to reload.  It lets you press a little harder.

 

Then there are those hoser stages with two 8-round arrays you can shoot without moving.  Sure, they put a second shooting box out there to make it legal.  Naturally, no one uses them.  Designed by hi-cap shooters with no regard for Prod or SS (yes, we still have some).  Standing reloads suck.

 

Could I design stages where 15 was practical.  Of course.  Will everyone?  No.  That is the problem.  Young guys design stages with lots of running.  GMs design more technical stages.  The most interesting stage designs are when you see shooters exercising 3 or 4 different stage plans.  Boring is when everyone shoots it the same way.  Then it is who can run the fastest.

agreed, if it was up to me, Id do a gun fit in box, or mag length rule,,

[shred]

Eh, boxes and gauges and "factory" lengths always lead to the arms race of trying to squeeze one more round in with the magic basepad or follower or pistol du-jour.  Equipment makers may like it but it seems contrary to "Production".

 

[whan]

4 hours ago, shred said:

Eh, boxes and gauges and "factory" lengths always lead to the arms race of trying to squeeze one more round in with the magic basepad or follower or pistol du-jour.  Equipment makers may like it but it seems contrary to "Production".

 

 

This - for production/production optics a defined round count makes far more sense vs. trying to game and get the latest and greatest follower/mag/extension combo. FWIW apparently now a new company is coming out with 25 round 9mm 140mm extensions…

[zzt]

7 hours ago, shred said:

Eh, boxes and gauges and "factory" lengths always lead to the arms race of trying to squeeze one more round in with the magic basepad or follower or pistol du-jour.  Equipment makers may like it but it seems contrary to "Production".

 

 

So what.  17 still gives a shooter much more flexibility than 15.  There will always be gamers who believe one extra round will make all the difference in the world.  It won't, but it's their money to waste.

 

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Even at my advanced age I can move my feet

 

Youngster.  Wait until you are 76 and tell me you can move your feet as fast.

[dmshozer1]

25 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

So what.  17 still gives a shooter much more flexibility than 15.  There will always be gamers who believe one extra round will make all the difference in the world.  It won't, but it's their money to waste.

 

 

Youngster.  Wait until you are 76 and tell me you can move your feet as fast.

 

[dmshozer1]

ZZ,

I am pushing 83 so I hear you!

I can shoot as fast as the youngsters but my movement puts me 5 to ten seconds behind these running and not shooting stages.

I still love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

 

 

Youngster.  Wait until you are 76 and tell me you can move your feet as fast.

meh, i wont be whining about “track meets” just because im old. and ill probably still be able to outrun the fat gm, and he’ll probably still be beating me in every match.

Edited November 4, 2023 by motosapiens

[zzt]

Well, Stage one today was designed by a young, lightning fast runner.    From a starting stick outside the shooting area, surrender draw with an unloaded gun, you had to run uprange 30 yards to the first shooting area.  Then draw, load and engage three paper and one popper.  Then run 35 yards to the left to the next shooting area.  From there you engaged the remaining targets at various firing ports along a curving 45 yard shooting area.  30 round stage.

 

I finished in 39 seconds.  The 20 year old on our squad finished in just under 21 seconds.  The Stage designer finished in just under 28 seconds. 

 

That's the point I made.  Stage seven was much the same, but not as bad.  I much preferred it when they copied stages from LII and LIII matches.

[TaterHead]

Sorry, that’s a really stupid stage.

[MHicks]

I'd have to see those distances measured to believe it. How many bays did it use?

[zzt]

21 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I'd have to see those distances measured to believe it. How many bays did it use?

 

Just one.  It is really wide and deep.  Same with bay 5 where stage 7 was set up.    They are the two deepest pistol bays I've seen at any club.  Another club I shoot at has three bays that are even wider, but not as deep.

[MHicks]

That's 110 yards, 45 of them not in a straight line, firing 30 rounds along the way. With the fastest time 21 seconds. No rounds fired in the first 30 yards . And no one thought to video it?

[motosapiens]

lol, sounds like a bit of wild exaggeration, but it also sounds like kind of a dumb stage, and I don't mind running at all. I just like shooting better, lol.

[zzt]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

lol, sounds like a bit of wild exaggeration, but it also sounds like kind of a dumb stage, and I don't mind running at all. I just like shooting better, lol.

 

I may be off by a yard or two, but no exaggeration.  There was a shorter path.  You could run from the starting stick forward (7 yards) to the right side of the curved shooting area.  Then run backwards through the course until the end of the curve.  Then run 35 (or so) yards to the right shooting box for the last three shots.    

 

An Open shooter my age shot it just that way.  He was 6 seconds faster than me.  The jackrabbit who finished in 20.xx seconds also shot it that way.  I considered it.  I hate running backwards.  Most shot it the same way I did.