Limited Major dying?

[deerslayer]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:06 AM, SPINGE said:

I got my start in competition shooting in Steel Challenge in '19 and hung out at the range nearly every weekend. Nobody there cared about .40 S&W. As a millennial I have seen plenty of gunstagram and influencer posts...nobody cares about .40 S&W. As an employee at a large auction company nobody cares about .40 S&W! .40 guns go for less money as do .40 some components. Back in '19 after wetting my feet with Steel Challenge I decided movement would be fun and did some Action Steel...guess what? Nobody cared about .40 S&W. After that I got the nerve to go to USPSA and compete with the gamers in their jerseys, salomons, and crazy 2011s. One of the guys I work with who is active here on BE and has made GM in a few divisions across SCSA and USPSA got me started with a rig and division suggestion for my first USPSA match. I did L imited M inor for ease of stage planning and not needing to reload. He told me I would "be scored minor" and when he told me about PF and scoring, I can still remember being absolutely stunned that a lot of guys used .40 S&W. I simply couldn't believe it.

 

After my first match in 2019 I continued shooting but stopped when C0VID got rough with primers. After a hiatus I got back into shooting a few months ago and now shoot almost every weekend. After coming back from the 2019-2020 days and knowing a bit more I got a new gun. An iron sighted 9mm since it will work well in Steel Challenge and USPSA. For USPSA I had the option of shooting Lim. Min. or dealing with tons of magazine changes and shooting PROD. I opted for the magazine changes in a MINOR only division and shoot PROD exclusively. Another high lever shooter coworker of mine does not care about .40 S&W and just shoots LIM. Min0r not caring about the scoring, that is how much he refuses the .40. The previously mentioned GM has .40s but hates loading it and hardly ever shoots them.

 

The MIN/MAJ debate is even influencing new purchases. I am now in the process of picking a new division and think Limited Optics will be what I do since its MINOR ONLY. With a 9mm USPSA LIM OP I can shoot in SCSA OPEN and even have a plate system done up to cover four divisions across both sports. In choosing the new gun I would love a high capacity iron sighted 9mm 2011 but don't want to go in a MIN/MAJ division, so I think LIM OP is the move. I really was considering LIMITED, as unlike so many my age I actually love iron sights, but the prospect of needing to do .40 for Major made me walk away from the idea. Let's face it .40 S&W is now a specialty boutique round. .40 S&W is literally being kept alive by USPSA Limited Division shooters, thats it. No other segment of the population cares about .40 S&W.  In 2019 I remember seeing a lot more .40 S&W shooters doing Limited. These days in the months I have been back the matches consist of a TON of CO and PCC, a good amount of OPEN, very very few PROD, and in the past five months I have seen only one SS shooter and two REVO shooters. Out of the few LIMITED Shooters I see (slightly more than PROD), a good deal shoot 9mm minor and DGAF about score. From 2019 to now the amount of limited and .40 shooters has fallen, at least at the matches I attend. Personally with current trends and the fact that 90% of my range brass is 9mm, it makes no sense for me to buy anything chambered for .40 S&W...a dying round. Someone said it earlier in this thread that they don't want to be the last one holding a multi-thousand dollar .40 pistol and tons of ammo to collect dust. I agree 100%. It's not the 1990s or early 2000s, .40 ain't hot and brass is harder to come by. Nobody wants to shoot irons either. Pair a round that nobody cares about with guys wanting to shoot dots instead of irons and you have the perfect recipe for Limited Major participation going away. Just like dots and "high capacity" magazines in CO killed irons and low capacity magazines in PROD. Times change.

 

 

 

TLDR: Nobody cares about .40 S&W. Limited Major is dying.

 

 

 

I have read this entire thread and appreciated everyones insights. I hope my rambling is semi-coherent and you get a bit of value from mine. These are just opinions and obviously some are hyperbolic. Oh, and I almost forgot NOBODY CARES ABOUT .40!

 

Respectfully

-SPINGE

For someone who doesn’t care about .40, you sure like to talk about .40.  
 

If you don’t care about .40, don’t shoot it.  If nobody cares about .40 as you claim, it will soon disappear and Limited will be exclusively minor.   

[OPENB]

On 10/22/2023 at 12:46 PM, Boomstick303 said:

but there are a lot of revolver and single stack guys to cry into your beer with.  

but are there, really?

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

For someone who doesn’t care about .40, you sure like to talk about .40.  
 

If you don’t care about .40, don’t shoot it.  If nobody cares about .40 as you claim, it will soon disappear and Limited will be exclusively minor.   

 

Limited wont become exclusively minor as long as major is a option. Ever shoot a stage where there are lots of options but everyone shoots it the same way? That happens because there really weren't any options. Shooting Limited with a minor gun is like that.  Really it's the same for divisions as a whole. Over half our divisions have really low activity because no one is interested in them. But we need to keep them because 'options"

 

edit, reworded to avoid the "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" thing

Edited October 23, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[motosapiens]

On 10/22/2023 at 8:54 AM, shred said:

The FBI giveth and the FBI taketh away.  Next time they need a scapegoat for losing a shootout everyone will rush back to the .40 again.  

 

haha, true story. Personally I believe the FBI has no ulterior motives (like getting more chicks and poofs to be able to pass their quals) if they tell me that getting hit by a yugo feels the same as getting hit by a crown vic.

[MHicks]

It seems pretty simple to me. Lots of people want to shoot cheaper ammo. With the divisions now there are more divisions to compete in shooting 9mm at no handicap to major scoring.  A lot of shooters, especially newer shooters in the last few years, have never shot guns with major pf ammo. I enjoy shooting major pf in SS or Limited but now even limited is losing many shooters. I'm trying LO now too.

 

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, MHicks said:

It seems pretty simple to me. Lots of people want to shoot cheaper ammo. With the divisions now there are more divisions to compete in shooting 9mm at no handicap to major scoring.  A lot of shooters, especially newer shooters in the last few years, have never shot guns with major pf ammo. I enjoy shooting major pf in SS or Limited but now even limited is losing many shooters. I'm trying LO now too.

 

 

I'm in that boat too, I really enjoyed Limited and SS shooting major. But, I think those guys are just going to collect dust in my safe forever.

 

Well, I converted one limited gun into a LO gun. But the SS gun I have in 40 I doubt I'll ever really shoot again. 

[SPINGE]

You have missed the forest for the trees. I do not care about .40 but I do care about Major scoring. I don't care about making Major with .40 S&W just as I don't care about 10mm, .357 SIG, .50 GI, .400 CorBon, .40 G&A, .41 AE, .50 AE, .44 Mag, .40 Super, etc. etc. 

 

I used .40 S&W because it is the most common and popular cartridge to make Major with.

 

I think many here have noticed, as have I, that Limited Major is already disappearing. 

2 hours ago, deerslayer said:

For someone who doesn’t care about .40, you sure like to talk about .40.  
 

If you don’t care about .40, don’t shoot it.  If nobody cares about .40 as you claim, it will soon disappear and Limited will be exclusively minor.   

 

[SPINGE]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Limited wont become exclusively minor as long as major is a option. Ever shoot a stage where there are lots of options but everyone shoots it the same way? That happens because there really weren't any options. Shooting Limited with a minor gun is like that.  Really it's the same for divisions as a whole. Over half our divisions have really low activity because no one is interested in them. But we need to keep them because 'options"

 

edit, reworded to avoid the "A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want" thing

 

Excellent point Racinready300ex

 

I chose a division with a 10 round limit and loading real mags to 10 rounds to avoid the disadvantage of Minor vs Major in Limited.

[SPINGE]

38 minutes ago, MHicks said:

It seems pretty simple to me. Lots of people want to shoot cheaper ammo. With the divisions now there are more divisions to compete in shooting 9mm at no handicap to major scoring.  A lot of shooters, especially newer shooters in the last few years, have never shot guns with major pf ammo. I enjoy shooting major pf in SS or Limited but now even limited is losing many shooters. I'm trying LO now too.

 

Very well put MHicks, for the majority of young shooters lives all they have shot is 9mm. It is the cartridge of the times.

[SPINGE]

I will continue to have fun playing this game we all love, and hope everyone does the same! 

 

I will just be shooting Minor only divisions and keeping things simple in terms of cross-sport guns (SCSA-USPSA) and easy from a reloading standpoint with the 9mm cartridge. 

 

I want to do Limited but as stated previously I would rather have a 9mm that will also be good for SCSA too if I'm to shell out a few thousand dollars. So I will have fun in USPSA LO and use that same gun in SCSA OPEN!

 

At the end of the day I personally think that making Major in Limited is actually what is hurting the participation, imagine if it was Minor only? However, since Limited and power factor are both OG Legacy subjects I don't think we see Minor only any time soon and that participation in this decision continues to decline. 

 

All the best

-SPINGE

[Racinready300ex]

23 minutes ago, SPINGE said:

I will continue to have fun playing this game we all love, and hope everyone does the same! 

 

I will just be shooting Minor only divisions and keeping things simple in terms of cross-sport guns (SCSA-USPSA) and easy from a reloading standpoint with the 9mm cartridge. 

 

I want to do Limited but as stated previously I would rather have a 9mm that will also be good for SCSA too if I'm to shell out a few thousand dollars. So I will have fun in USPSA LO and use that same gun in SCSA OPEN!

 

At the end of the day I personally think that making Major in Limited is actually what is hurting the participation, imagine if it was Minor only? However, since Limited and power factor are both OG Legacy subjects I don't think we see Minor only any time soon and that participation in this decision continues to decline. 

 

All the best

-SPINGE

 

I think you're likely right. If if look at our divisions the one glaring thing missing is a division for high capacity 9mm iron sight guns. If we look at the general gun owner population the thing the vast majority have is a 9mm high capacity iron sight gun. 

 

Not to say optics aren't gaining popularity in the outside world. But again, here we don't really have a choice, if you want to shoot high-cap minor you either shoot with a dot or you artificially handicap yourself for no reason. Had prod gone to 140's at the same time CO did I bet the divisions would look pretty different today. 

 

But, I don't think just adding more divisions is the right move either. 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, SPINGE said:

You have missed the forest for the trees. I do not care about .40 but I do care about Major scoring. I don't care about making Major with .40 S&W just as I don't care about 10mm, .357 SIG, .50 GI, .400 CorBon, .40 G&A, .41 AE, .50 AE, .44 Mag, .40 Super, etc. etc. 

 

I used .40 S&W because it is the most common and popular cartridge to make Major with.

 

I think many here have noticed, as have I, that Limited Major is already disappearing. 

 

I haven’t missed anything.  I freely acknowledge that Limited major is dying and I understand why.  If Limited went to minor only, I think it would be a blast, but I actually like .40 because it makes a lot of sense (in USPSA), is not much more expensive than 9mm, and is the least dramatic caliber I load.  If it dies, it dies, but people act like it should be banned or something.  I do hate to see it go because what follows is probably idiots wanting to lower major to 150 or even 140.  

Edited October 23, 2023 by deerslayer

[TaterHead]

This has to be the longest post mortem on record.

[ltdmstr]

Gotta make it easy to compete with everything else.  Buy your hicap dot gun and factory ammo, take a couple courses, do a little dry fire, post a bunch of videos, and promote your utube channel.  Now, it's much more about how fast you can navigate the course than how well you shoot, manage recoil, etc.  Totally different game.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by ltdmstr

[SPINGE]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

Gotta make it easy to compete with everything else.  Buy your hicap dot gun and factory ammo, take a couple courses, do a little dry fire, post a bunch of videos, and promote your utube channel.  Now, it's much more about how fast you can navigate the course than how well you shoot, manage recoil, etc.  Totally different game.

 

Facts. Promote your YouTube channel dead. 

[Ron Ankeny]

I didn't read the entire thread so this might have been discussed. How about making Limited a minor division with major scoring to make up for not having an optic? FWIW, I am 68 years old and I haven't shot irons in years due to failing vision. Fifteen years ago, I was a GM Limited shooter so I do have a pretty decent handle on skill development with major vs. minor. The better shooters will rise to the top no matter what the power factor.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Ron Ankeny
after thought

[Runswithwood1]

44 minutes ago, Ron Ankeny said:

I didn't read the entire thread so this might have been discussed. How about making Limited a minor division with major scoring to make up for not having an optic? FWIW, I am 68 years old and I haven't shot irons in years due to failing vision. Fifteen years ago, I was a GM Limited shooter so I do have a pretty decent handle on skill development with major vs. minor. The better shooters will rise to the top no matter what the power factor.

I....actually support this, considering I've got a couple 40s laying around that I'd lose my ass off if sold, I wonder how well a dot would hold up on a slide ride limited major?

[MHicks]

I think Ron is suggesting a division allowing 40 major iron sights and 9mm minor with optics. That could be an interesting trade off.

 

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I think Ron is suggesting a division allowing 40 major iron sights and 9mm minor with optics. That could be an interesting trade off.

 

based on what i've seen at local matches, and area matches, and in my own shooting, CO generally scores a few% better than lim major on most stages.

[NoahBeretta]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

based on what i've seen at local matches, and area matches, and in my own shooting, CO generally scores a few% better than lim major on most stages.

I wonder if that is affected by the sheer volume of shooters choosing CO over Lim Major though? 

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, NoahBeretta said:

I wonder if that is affected by the sheer volume of shooters choosing CO over Lim Major though? 

i'm comparing my own scores in each division in the overall of our local match. we have some pretty consistent open m and gm shooters, and when I shoot CO i get a slightly higher percentage of their score compared to when I shoot limited.

 

there are some other things that factor into it, for example i think stages have gradually gotten harder over the last few years (longer distances, more partials), and my eyes are gradually getting weaker, and i'm shooting a CO gun i love. 3-4 years ago i was dabbling in CO and typically doing *worse* than limited, but it was also due to budget co builds with crappy dots and not very much dot experience, compared to a high-end limited gun with years of experience shooting it.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

based on what i've seen at local matches, and area matches, and in my own shooting, CO generally scores a few% better than lim major on most stages.

 

I'm wondering if it would still even things up more vs iron sight major/minor that we know favors major. In SS the major 8/minor 10 is a pretty good balance. But not as good a balance in Limited.

[Makicjf]

Will Prod 15 syphon off the Lim Min shooters at the local level?  If that's the case, it will only leave the dedicated Limited shooters in limited.

  Jason

Edit: I forgot to avoid A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want

Edited October 25, 2023 by Makicjf

[shred]

3 hours ago, Makicjf said:

Will Prod 15 syphon off the Lim Min shooters at the local level?  If that's the case, it will only leave the dedicated Limited shooters in limited.

 

It'll go to being a place for shooters that want to shoot Limited versus a catch-all for everyone that doesn't have a dot.  The numbers have always been artificially inflated by that, so using them to determine anything about its actual popularity as-such is a waste of time.

 

[RJH]

3 hours ago, Makicjf said:

Will Prod 15 syphon off the Lim Min shooters at the local level?  If that's the case, it will only leave the dedicated Limited shooters in limited.

  Jason

Edit: I forgot to avoid A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want

 

 

I think it will some. I think some of the guys showing up with production legal guns and shooting in limited because they don't have enough mags will just go to production.

 

However, other people are going to have "production" guns that won't be legal in production still. Maybe they have a magwell or something so they're going to still be stuck in limited shooting minor. 

 

But, I wouldn't be surprised if production going to 15 rounds dropped limited participation at local matches by about 20% overnight