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Chris iliff

HAS OPEN TECHNOLOGY PEAKED

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In light of the world speed shoot outcome,...has The advancement of open technology peaked/stalled????

 

 

Will open minor now become a thing....Super light everything, frame mounted optic? Shooting as low a power factor as possible?  

 

Is the paradigm shattered??  Does a faster FPS, more gas, better comped guns shoot flatter and faster and better?

 

Hmmmm. Let’s go in reverse with what we’ve been thinking for 45 years and build a gun that shoots soooo flat at minor power factor, that giving up some points don’t matter.

 

WOW. 

 

 

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I think there are a couple of things to consider.  In steel challenge, the scenario is one shot per target; therefore, the difference between a production gun shooting sub minor and an open gun is mainly the red dot optic.  So, putting a red dot on a production gun makes up most of the difference.  In USPSA stages where double taps are the norm, a flat shooting open gun has more of an advantage.  A red dot makes a huge difference, especially to us that are getting older!

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2 hours ago, Chris iliff said:

 

Hmmmm. Let’s go in reverse with what we’ve been thinking for 45 years and build a gun that shoots soooo flat at minor power factor, that giving up some points don’t matter.

 

I have been having similar thoughts. 

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I doubt it's peaked, but we need some out-of-the-box innovation. Though I believe this with pistols in general right now. The majority seems to be some variation on the same thing - striker or hammer fired Browning tilting barrel stuff. The Laugo Arms Alien is finally something different that could be pretty interesting. Hopefully there are some more clever people out there.

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7 hours ago, hamiltonian said:

 In USPSA stages where double taps are the norm, a flat shooting open gun has more of an advantage.  A red dot makes a huge difference, especially to us that are getting older!

If you check out the World Speed Shoot scores you might be surprised to see that at least one VERY GOOD OPEN GUY beat his open gun times with a CO gun. 

 

So you think if the game was two on each steel the Open gun wins?  In the same hands?  Not so sure. 

 

I dont buy that.

 

My premise being,...I think CO won because it’s lighter, faster, and has less recoil in minor. Which means it’s measurably faster in sight acquisition/recoil control and transitions.  These factors combine to negate minor scoring over a field course. In the right hands that is. 

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1 hour ago, Silverscooby27 said:

Dot helps out those of us who are cross dominant too

I’m cross dominant. 15+ years USPSA. 

 

Im not talking optics, but yes. 

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If you check out the World Speed Shoot scores you might be surprised to see that at least one VERY GOOD OPEN GUY beat his open gun times with a CO gun. 
 
So you think if the game was two on each steel the Open gun wins?  In the same hands?  Not so sure. 
 
I dont buy that.
 
My premise being,...I think CO won because it’s lighter, faster, and has less recoil in minor. Which means it’s measurably faster in sight acquisition/recoil control and transitions.  These factors combine to negate minor scoring over a field course. In the right hands that is. 



Your premise is easy to test. Check major Uspsa match scores. Where do you find a CO shooter finishing ahead of open? Typically open still wins by decent margin.


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I routinely see CO shooters in the top 10 overall at level 2 matches. Very very rarely does one see Prod there. When there is no major pf scoring advantage I could see how CO could take an overall just fine.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/81667

 

So what are we talking about? Has Open gun technology stalled or has CO exposed a different strategy? I do have to say as I've watched good CO shooters lately, I've said to myself "wow, they're shooting that just like and open gun".

 

Totally off topic but this reminds me of 2010-ish in Prod. Most people shot a Glock 34 and that gun had been dominating with Vogel and Sevigny. What you heard was "The lighter gun draws and transitions faster. You only have to learn one type of trigger pull. Those metal DA/SA guns are too heavy to drive around well and you have to learn two trigger pulls. No thanks."  Now you flash forward to 2017 and all you hear is "Those plastic guns are to light to shoot splits quickly. My heavy gun just mitigates recoil and is so flat. Who cares if I have one bad trigger pull if I get 31 other great ones after it?"

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57 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

If you check out the World Speed Shoot scores you might be surprised to see that at least one VERY GOOD OPEN GUY beat his open gun times with a CO gun. 

 

So you think if the game was two on each steel the Open gun wins?  In the same hands?  Not so sure. 

 

I dont buy that.

 

My premise being,...I think CO won because it’s lighter, faster, and has less recoil in minor. Which means it’s measurably faster in sight acquisition/recoil control and transitions.  These factors combine to negate minor scoring over a field course. In the right hands that is. 

The open gun is also shooting minor. I think the issue is how much time these guys have been spending with their CO pistols. 

 

Not enough people train hard enough for this anymore to get the best picture of equipment. A few good/bad runs either way and this is how it turns out. 

 

Nevermind the real advantage in uspsa is the scoring not the other stuff you're talking about. 

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My newest Open gun is a heavy 2011 with a steel grip.  I recently began developing minor loads for it.  On a lark I decided to try some 9mm reman ammo I bought.  124gr loaded to 135PF.  It shot.  There was zero muzzle rise.  The recoil was straight back and super soft.  If you have good trigger control, this would be an advantage for USPSA.  The only problem in my gun was the brass literally dribbled out to a pile beside my right foot.  Going up to 150PF for better ejection makes the dot move almost as much as my major load does.

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2 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

The open gun is also shooting minor. I think the issue is how much time these guys have been spending with their CO pistols

 

Not enough people train hard enough for this anymore to get the best picture of equipment. A few good/bad runs either way and this is how it turns out. 

 

Nevermind the real advantage in uspsa is the scoring not the other stuff you're talking about. 

I agree with this, when I was shooting the pro am with my open gun I started by lowering the power factor down to around 150. Yes it was softer but it messed up my timing 

Did this for 3 matches. The last time I shot the pro am I used my major power factor 175 ammo, had my best finish. I was used to the timing of the gun with the 175 pf ammo

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Chris iliff said:

build a gun that shoots soooo flat at minor power factor, that giving up some points don’t matter.

 

Your premise is flawed. Major wins because you can hammer away at targets on the move, or be ultra-aggressive on partial targets because shooting Cs very quickly results in a higher HF than taking the extra few hundreths to shoot the target clean.

 

Anything of that sort shaves enough time off to boost your score when shooting Major. It doesn’t do that in Minor.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Chris iliff said:

If you check out the World Speed Shoot scores you might be surprised to see that at least one VERY GOOD OPEN GUY beat his open gun times with a CO gun. 

 

Not surprising at all. Steel Challenge plays down all of the advantages that Open offers over other handguns which make it so dominant in USPSA:

 

1. Magazine capacity

2. Dot

3. Major scoring

4. Compensator

 

The first one is obvious. We’re only shooting 5, plus makeups.

 

The second? Both guns have a dot, so that’s a wash in both sports.

 

Steel challenge targets don’t offer any benefit to a Major shooter. (You’re only shooting Alphas or mikes, no extra credit for C’s.)

 

Transitioning to the next target on each shot gives the uncompensated gun time to return from recoil, so the comp is no longer a huge factor on followup shots.

 

If SC required two shots per target and the targets had a C-zone things might be different. Maybe.

 

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Another factor that can't be ignored is which platform did the Steel Challenge shooter put in the majority of their practice on. I can't speak for BJ since I don't know him personally or his specific practice program. But watching his social media feeds before the most recent Steel Challenge World Championship showed him practicing with his Glock Carry Optics gun more than anything else. If the bulk of his practice was biased towards using that Glock CO gun, then he would obviously have a performance bias towards that platform. The same could be said for Max. His primary platform focus for the last couple of seasons has been on the SIG X5 Carry Optics gun. 


Think of the ergonomics differences alone between a Glock and a 2011. The Grip Angle difference alone would be a significant challenge for most to overcome when shooting them back to back. Then there is the bore to sight height offset that is way different between a Glock CO and Open 2011, trigger pull length and weight, overall gun weight, muzzle flip profile, and on and on and on. 

 

There is no getting around the fact that even at the World Champion skill level there will be a slight performance reduction when switching to a gun platform that isn't your "Primary" platform. These guys can obviously switch platforms and mop the floor against most the competition. But they are still sacrificing some performance by shooting a gun platform that isn't their primary setup. 

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4 hours ago, Chris iliff said:

My premise being,...I think CO won because it’s lighter, faster, and has less recoil in minor. 

 

Aren't serious steel shooters shooting minor (or sub-minor) in open too?

 

For sure minor is an advantage when everything is scored the same, the way it is for steel.

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Open gun advantages (relative to a box stock iron sight pistol) in order from most to least advantageous for USPSA/IPSC

 

Dot

Major scoring  

Capacity

Comp

SA trigger

 

 

Carry Optic gun advantages compared to open in order from most to least advantageous for USPSA/IPSC

 

 

Dot

Major scoring  this one hurts vs

Capacity (23 is close enough for 90% of stages)

Comp

SA Trigger   (either 1 D pull then equal or a striker with a decent trigger is pretty close)

 

 

Notice I left weight off, some are building uber heavy open guns right now but there are plenty out there that weigh less than the CO limit and lots of CO guns are at the limit some are super light too and neither seems to actually show improved results so I call weight a wash.

 

For steel challenge comps are great, if you miss, if you hit first time, every time, a comp makes no difference, hitting first time every time wins in that game 

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In my area, about 60% of the USPSA Open Division shoots major; the rest minot.

 

In steel challenge the majority of Open shooters shoot ammo between 150 and 155FP.  Some have specially modified guns that only shoot minor squib loads.  One guy just shoots major for everything.  I have shot SCSA with both major and minor.  Minor is faster for me.

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Posted (edited)

Wow! Lots to think about. 

 

But maybe i didn't define EXACTLY what I’m thinking correctly. 

 

First, has open tech peaked? Pretty simple. Yes or no. I’m leaning yes. 

 

Second, have we really explored minor tech?  Basically, we take stock guns and slap slide ride optics on them. These CO guns have tons of rules for mods.  There’s just only so much you can do to the gun. But yet, here we are, and HISTORY of sorts, has been made. A platform OUTSIDE open won HOA at a world speed shoot. 

 

So this caused me to think.....

 

What if I didn’t have to follow the modification rules of CO?  What if I built a weapon, designed for minor, that had the same round capacity as open?  Except, because I’m in Open, I can just about perform any mod I want. Has this ever been truly explored??

Forget the paradigm of a typical open gun. The typical open gun shooting mouse fart minor just got beat by a typical CO gun shooting mouse fart minor. 

 

Now rethink the open gun. Redesign it without the restrictions placed on a production or CO gun. I don’t believe we even know all the possibilities. Years ago we went skyrocketing in one direction (paradigm) with open and never looked back. 

 

This HOA by a CO caused me to wonder if the thinking for Open is stuck in the original paradigm?  Which seems to have always been pushing bullets faster and generating as much gas as possible to blow through a comp keeping the gun flat. 

 

So maybe that that is a better explanation of my thinking. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Chris iliff

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, rowdyb said:

 

So what are we talking about? Has Open gun technology stalled or has CO exposed a different strategy? I do have to say as I've watched good CO shooters lately, I've said to myself "wow, they're shooting that just like and open gun".

 

That about perfectly sums up what I’m thinking. Thanks for finding the brevity that eluded me, lol. 

 

Has CO exposed a possible strategy or possible design shift of an open gun?  

Edited by Chris iliff

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Powder technologies are another area that will be affecting the sport (and military applications)... Also having been in the sport years ago, out of it, and back on the periphery now a lot of "innovation" is marketing -- guns are too durable to wear out in 3yrs, but if the latest port design, in conjunction with grip fad can drive sales, then manufacturers will take advantage of that and sell new product.

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Features and technology tested in CO will trickle down to our carry, duty, and home defense pistols, which is a good thing.

 

Open will still be open and isn't going anywhere or going to change unless there's some radical changes to the rules.  Flashy, tricked out, loud as hell guns that can hose full speed ahead will always be appealing on some level, just like drag racing automobiles.  Totally impractical for anything but games.  

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

...

Now rethink the open gun. Redesign it without the restrictions placed on a production or CO gun. I don’t believe we even know all the possibilities. Years ago we went skyrocketing in one direction (paradigm) with open and never looked back. 

...

 

 

 

 

 

If you look at other disciplines, the tech has been much the same. Decrease time and adjustment needed for follow-up shows via the usage of a comp that redirects gas. Rifles in 3-gun and even shotguns too.

 

Even the next steps forward, something like an Alien pistol, rely on the same mechanics. Albeit, improved. Maybe taking an Alien and adding a comp on to it will be the next hot open gun.

 

Short of massive steps forward like caseless ammunition that don't need an extraction stroke, I don't see things really changing much.

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4 minutes ago, forkliftHIFI said:

 Totally impractical for anything but games.  

 

Not really true.   Open gun can make a great house gun (or car gun for that matter).   :) 

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