HAS OPEN TECHNOLOGY PEAKED

[MikeBurgess]

In a typical stage for typical GM's, the difference between major and minor is somewhere around .1-.15 seconds for a charlie. So for each charlie you shoot, you need to be at *least* 1/10 second faster shooting minor. Considering open gm's are already shooting .15-.20 splits on most targets, there's not really alot of room to speed up on 2nd shots. Where else is the extra speed going to come from in minor?
 
top open shooters are already shooting at least 3/4 alphas. Is it feasible for someone shooting minor with a new wonder gun to go the same speed and shoot 7/8 alphas? That's a pretty dramatic increase in accuracy.....
 
The problem as I see it is that many people assume that they can shoot faster with minor than with major. That may be true for beginners, or for hoser targets like 'can you count', but is it true for better shooters and typical USPSA targets? Is it true for steel? My only experience is anecdotal, but as a garden variety M, I shoot the same times for steel challenge whether i'm shooting major 40-45, or 9mm minor. I shoot a couple percent faster on hosing bill drills and such. Not really enough to be worth it. Would it be worth it for someone more skilled? I doubt it, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Even for hoser stages like can you count major doesnt slow me down. I'm just an A but I run about .14 splits major or minor on that type of target the limit is ability to press the trigger any faster.

I know there are a few guys that can run .10 splits regularly but that is the exception not the norm.

About the only way to make a open gun appreciably faster (major or minor) would be burst fire so only one trigger press would result in x number of .05 splits. If I have to press the trigger for each shot I am the weak link in the system.




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[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Seems like we managed some “extra speed” on a clunky CO gun?? It did win HOA. 

 

 I’m just wondering, if there could be enough more developments, hitherto undiscovered, to warrant a look?  

 

So far, I really haven’t heard much other than,...1 shot game vs 2 shot game. Which is valid. 

 

 

Also 'all alpha' game, vs 'a/c/d' game.  It sounds dumb when you say it out loud, but obviously major no longer has an advantage if you take away the minor scoring disadvantage for c's and d's.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Even for hoser stages like can you count major doesnt slow me down. I'm just an A but I run about .14 splits major or minor on that type of target the limit is ability to press the trigger any faster.

I know there are a few guys that can run .10 splits regularly but that is the exception not the norm.

About the only way to make a open gun appreciably faster (major or minor) would be burst fire so only one trigger press would result in x number of .05 splits. If I have to press the trigger for each shot I am the weak link in the system.




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Not me, but i have ROed a guy who did .11s, and even a .11 transition, with 185 PF ammo.  They were hoser distance, but still pretty quick

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Also 'all alpha' game, vs 'a/c/d' game.  It sounds dumb when you say it out loud, but obviously major no longer has an advantage if you take away the minor scoring disadvantage for c's and d's.

I think this is the deal here.  In steel challenge or a pro am, minor is advantageous over  major, and so a super light  minor open  gun might be the ticket, but in USPSA, minor open is a waste of time and effort, unless you are just playing around and have no chance of winning regardless.  So, open minor would me fine for someone like me haha

[Chris iliff]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

top open shooters are already shooting at least 3/4 alphas. Is it feasible for someone shooting minor with a new wonder gun to go the same speed and shoot 7/8 alphas? That's a pretty dramatic increase in accuracy.....

 

The problem as I see it is that many people assume that they can shoot faster with minor than with major. That may be true for beginners, or for hoser targets like 'can you count', but is it true for better shooters and typical USPSA targets? Is it true for steel? My only experience is anecdotal, but as a garden variety M, I shoot the same shoot a couple percent faster on hosing

First paragraph is spot on, thanks. Yep, that’s about what I was wondering. 

 

Second paragraph,...didn’t better shooters kinda just demonstrate that they could shoot faster, at least on steel? Using a platform that is constrained by rules I might add. 

 

Like you Moto, I am also just a garden variety M open shooter who has only dabbled over the last 15 or so years.

 

I find it all interesting and appreciate all the feedback. 

 

It makes Enos the best. 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

 
Seems like we managed some “extra speed” on a clunky CO gun?? It did win HOA. 
 

 
 
 
 

Not true, a shooter found some extra speed and that shooter happened to be shooting a CO gun

In the greater scheme of things in USPSA/IPSC/SCSA the shooter is by far the largest factor in the equation.

Yes a open major shooter tends to win most matches, and it is quite normal for it to be a decent margin of second place (think several percent) because that shooter shot better not because they had a better gun. Then as you start looking down the results you see a mixture of divisions appear pretty quickly because a lesser gun doesnt make enough difference to stop a good shooter from shooting well.

We are not F1 the better gun will not automatically win. Heck having a better gun may or may not actually be visible in the results.

Look at oprn guns today, heavy grip, mid length, I just rebuilt a 20 year old Caspian oddly also a heavy grip middy. So not a lot of progress

Look at comps today and you will see everyone makes something different, if something actually worked better they would all be the same but because nothing works noticeably better many designs are viable and competitive.

My point is this us a shooters game not a gun game, and the difference in potential from a 8 shot single stack to a full open gun is so small even that can be overcome.

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[theWacoKid]

2 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Second paragraph,...didn’t better shooters kinda just demonstrate that they could shoot faster, at least on steel? Using a platform that is constrained by rules I might add. 

 

 

 

Actually they didn't. Reread my first post.  

 

USPSA isn't about accuracy per se. It's about points. You will shoot more accurate with minor but not by a margin large enough to shoot more points. 

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Second paragraph,...didn’t better shooters kinda just demonstrate that they could shoot faster, at least on steel? Using a platform that is constrained by rules I might add. 

 

 

 

 

Actually, better shooters demonstrated they could shoot fastest by shooting rimfire, and note that the high overall was an iron sights gun........  What does this say about the future gun development for USPSA?

 

But back to the guns that draw from a holster, BJ was 80% in CO, KC was 77% in open, then BJ again at 76% in open, then Max at 74% in CO. Is max's gun just not as good as BJ's wonder gun? Does max lose time due to the extra letter in his first name?

 

The real question is when will uspsa legalize 22 rifles for open so I can win HOA.

[caspian guy]

Be curious to see the open world record times (maybe held by Max/Bj?) against their CO times this year? To see what the comparison is between Max's max CO effort and max open effort. (trying to find a common yard stick to judge the OP's conjecture against.)

Edited May 23, 2019 by caspian guy

[Dutchman195]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:04 AM, Shmella said:

open minor will never be a thing.

Facts

[Chris iliff]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

 

Not true, a shooter found some extra speed and that shooter happened to be shooting a CO gun

In the greater scheme of things in USPSA/IPSC/SCSA the shooter is by far the largest factor in the equation.

Yes a open major shooter tends to win most matches, and it is quite normal for it to be a decent margin of second place (think several percent) because that shooter shot better not because they had a better gun. Then as you start looking down the results you see a mixture of divisions appear pretty quickly because a lesser gun doesnt make enough difference to stop a good shooter from shooting well.

We are not F1 the better gun will not automatically win. Heck having a better gun may or may not actually be visible in the results.

Look at oprn guns today, heavy grip, mid length, I just rebuilt a 20 year old Caspian oddly also a heavy grip middy. So not a lot of progress

Look at comps today and you will see everyone makes something different, if something actually worked better they would all be the same but because nothing works noticeably better many designs are viable and competitive.

My point is this us a shooters game not a gun game, and the difference in potential from a 8 shot single stack to a full open gun is so small even that can be overcome.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

 

It’s always the shooter, so you are singing to the choir on that point.   I agree 100%. 

 

But in this competition we find that a shooter beat his own open times,  with a different platform. 

 

Its about as heads up a comparison as you can get between two platforms. 

 

Big name, big stakes. Same guy. 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

Actually, better shooters demonstrated they could shoot fastest by shooting rimfire, and note that the high overall was an iron sights gun........  What does this say about the future gun development for USPSA?

 

But back to the guns that draw from a holster, BJ was 80% in CO, KC was 77% in open, then BJ again at 76% in open, then Max at 74% in CO. Is max's gun just not as good as BJ's wonder gun? Does max lose time due to the extra letter in his first name?

 

The real question is when will uspsa legalize 22 rifles for open so I can win HOA.

I don’t believe BJ was shooting a wonder gun. 

 

Thats kinda my point. 

 

Hmmm,..I had an exact replica of my open gun in .22. So easy I got rid of it. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Chris iliff

[RJH]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

 

 difference in potential from a 8 shot single stack to a full open gun is so small even that can be overcome.


 

 

 

I hope you are referring to Steel challenge with this statement, because in USPSA it is easily provably false

[RJH]

30 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

But in this competition we find that a shooter beat his own open times,  with a different platform. 

 

Its about as heads up a comparison as you can get between two platforms. 

 

 

In steel challenge yes, in USPSA no.

 

Steel challenge takes away most of the open gun's advantages.  I think that is where your point or hypothesis, falls flat.  You want to say cause a CO gun topped an open gun in SC that they can compete on equal footing in USPSA, they can't and neither can any minor open gun.  Look at area and other major match  results, CO, just like limited (which CO actually compares favorably to) cannot consistently top open.  Look at this yeas optics nats results, Max M arguably one of the greatest dot shooters was over %17 behind the top open shooter.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I hope you are referring to Steel challenge with this statement, because in USPSA it is easily provably false

No, I'm referring to USPSA,  SS shooters beat open shooters on the regular, because the shooter makes more difference than the gun. heck I beat lots of Autos shooting a revo, is the revo better for the game? No, but the advantage an auto has is not insurmountable. 

[MikeBurgess]

50 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

But in this competition we find that a shooter beat his own open times,  with a different platform. 

 

Its about as heads up a comparison as you can get between two platforms. 

 

Big name, big stakes. Same guy. 

 

I believe that is because the gun makes very little difference in performance so if the same guy was feeling in tune a tiny bit more with one gun than the other he will win with that (in Steel Challenge) because hitting first time every time shooting just this side of index is what wins. 

 

I haven't looked at the results in depth but a question that comes up is was he consistently faster with the CO gun or was he just more consistent?  basically was it 4 faster runs vs open or 4 good runs in CO and 3 great and 1 not so good in open? In steel 2 bad runs on a stage can cost a match  

 

[Chris iliff]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

In steel challenge yes, in USPSA no.

 

Steel challenge takes away most of the open gun's advantages.  I think that is where your point or hypothesis, falls flat.  You want to say cause a CO gun topped an open gun in SC that they can compete on equal footing in USPSA, they can't and neither can any minor open gun.  Look at area and other major match  results, CO, just like limited (which CO actually compares favorably to) cannot consistently top open.  Look at this yeas optics nats results, Max M arguably one of the greatest dot shooters was over %17 behind the top open shooter.

 

 

Yes you kinda nail my hypothesis. 

 

Except, as an industry, I don’t believe we’ve ever explored minor in an open platform outside the pre-existing Open gun paradigm. 

 

Im asking because I’m not sold myself.

Plus I love the exchange, especially from people that know competition shooting. 

 

I will say this, ,...I wouldn’t shoot steel challenge with some watered down version of a traditional open platform anymore.  

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

No, I'm referring to USPSA,  SS shooters beat open shooters on the regular, because the shooter makes more difference than the gun. heck I beat lots of Autos shooting a revo, is the revo better for the game? No, but the advantage an auto has is not insurmountable. 

 

Yes, good SS shooters beat crappy open shooters, but anywhere near equal skill levels and the open shooter will dominate, to believe anything else is kinda delusional.  At the desert classic 2018 the top SS shooter (a GM) shot about %75 of the top open shooter.  Look at a more matches and the results will be the same.  If that is not enough proof, start signing up in open with your SS gun or revolver at majors and see if you dominate your class, something tells me you won't

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

Except, as an industry, I don’t believe we’ve ever explored minor in an open platform outside the pre-existing Open gun paradigm. 

 

 

 

Cause minor in an open platform is a fool's errand.  Hell, PCC generally loses to open guns

[Chris iliff]

2 hours ago, caspian guy said:

Be curious to see the open world record times (maybe held by Max/Bj?) against their CO times this year? To see what the comparison is between Max's max CO effort and max open effort. (trying to find a common yard stick to judge the OP's conjecture against.)

That’d be interesting, but remember,...I’m not really talking about a CO gun. 

 

The CO gun winning just caused me to think,....how much more could he have won by, if he didn’t have to follow all the restrictions in CO??

 

Basically, a heretofore never developed minor gun in open. 

[Chris iliff]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Cause minor in an open platform is a fool's errand.  Hell, PCC generally loses to open guns

Show me the research???

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Show me the research???

 

Go to practiscore and look at major match results.  I  ain't your  secretary 

[Joe4d]

Oh so yeh I bet I coulda whooped arse in revolver if I didnt have to actually follow the rules and could show up with my STI limited gun..
Whats ur dang point ?
So one single match somewhere someone, did better with a CO ? Humm so maybe just maybe a really good indian on one given Sunday ?
Plus you are mixing sports up.
Talking USPSA,,, pretty much anyone thats been around awhile knows the game is won by major PF guns shooting max capacity allowed.
Why dont YOU show us the research proving otherwise. 

[Chris iliff]

20 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Yes, good SS shooters beat crappy open shooters, but anywhere near equal skill levels and the open shooter will dominate, to believe anything else is kinda delusional.  At the desert classic 2018 the top SS shooter (a GM) shot about %75 of the top open shooter.  Look at a more matches and the results will be the same.  If that is not enough proof, start signing up in open with your SS gun or revolver at majors and see if you dominate your class, something tells me you won't

Why would you do that?  You seem to be missing the point?  We already know all that. 

 

Your analysis should be,...

If You had a gun, heretofore undeveloped, that shot minor, but operated in open, using the same rules as open, the same capacity as open, and all the other do’s and don’ts of open, could you win against yourself. 

 

Would you beat yourself?  

 

And here’s the hard part. Don’t picture a typical open gun. I ain’t talking that. 

[Chris iliff]

Reminds me of pushing for “production optics” in various threads years ago. 

 

The paradigm is so strong, it becomes very difficult to overcome. 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Chris iliff

[Chris iliff]

27 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Go to practiscore and look at major match results.  I  ain't your  secretary 

Again, the gun I’m referencing isn’t in practiscore or any USPSA results. Or steel challenge results. 

 

Shift your paradigm, I ain’t your life coach.