HAS OPEN TECHNOLOGY PEAKED

[caspian guy]

21 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

That’d be interesting, but remember,...I’m not really talking about a CO gun. 

 

The CO gun winning just caused me to think,....how much more could he have won by, if he didn’t have to follow all the restrictions in CO??

 

Basically, a heretofore never developed minor gun in open. 

So I was curious enough to look it up... The current world Open record for the main match is 74.84 shot by Max (2016). Max also held the previous CO record at 81.38 (2018).

 

So this year in the main match BJ set a new CO record at 75.37. (Max was at 81.21 in CO and 82.60 in Open )

 

So short of doing hard core data analytics what I can say is the world record time for CO dropped by about 8% and it is less than 1% slower than the open record.

 

 

 

 

[Chris iliff]

5 minutes ago, caspian guy said:

So I was curious enough to look it up... The current world Open record for the main match is 74.84 shot by Max (2016). Max also held the previous CO record at 81.38 (2018).

 

So this year in the main match BJ set a new CO record at 75.37. (Max was at 81.21 in CO and 82.60 in Open )

 

So short of doing hard core data analytics what I can say is the world record time for CO dropped by about 8% and it is less than 1% slower than the open record.

 

 

 

 

Wow!  Thanks for looking that up. 

 

Do you think the open platform could be radically re thought?  Maybe resulting in a bigger spread with open on top?

 

It’s  kinda obvious that right now CO and Open are neck and neck at steel challenge in the hands of the best. 

 

What could be be done to the open platform to return it to its previous dominance in the hands of the best?

Edited May 23, 2019 by Chris iliff

[MikeBurgess]

So I went and looked at the results 

 

For 7 stages BJ in open was a second faster than he was with CO but 2 bad runs on stage 2 cost him almost 5 seconds in open.

 

So in the end consistency wins the match, but for outright performance open is the way.  He was 1 run away from a new world record with the open gun, anybody know what order he shot the stages in?  was stage 2 his last stage? did he know he was shooting for a world record?

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Chris iliff said:

Why would you do that?  You seem to be missing the point?  We already know all that. 

 

Your analysis should be,...

If You had a gun, heretofore undeveloped, that shot minor, but operated in open, using the same rules as open, the same capacity as open, and all the other do’s and don’ts of open, could you win against yourself. 

 

Would you beat yourself?  

 

And here’s the hard part. Don’t picture a typical open gun. I ain’t talking that. 

I  brought that up cause mike more or less  said ss could compete with open on equal footing in USPSA, it can't. I am not missing the point at all, major is more advantageous,  if competing at the highest levels, why would not give yourself every advantage?  You seem to be missing the point,  uspsa ain't steel challenge 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Chris iliff said:

Again, the gun I’m referencing isn’t in practiscore or any USPSA results. Or steel challenge results. 

 

Shift your paradigm, I ain’t your life coach. 

 

Like if we went way out there amd made it a minor only rifle with basically unlimited ammo and it even start the stage in your hands? Then open major the way it is surely wouldn't dominate.......o wait, we already tried that.  Your idea is bad, let it go move on

[gdboytyler]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Cause minor in an open platform is a fool's errand.  Hell, PCC generally loses to open guns

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/68331

RJH is right.  Minor open is a fool’s errand.  For a minor open gun to be competitive, you’d have to be able to be as accurate as a PCC and the transition speed of an open gun.

Max would’ve needed to shoot all A’s with his PCC while keeping the same time to beat JJ for HOA in the Optics Nationals.

My wild guess for the next step in open guns is the Alien type gun shooting major.  Lower barrel axis and optic mounted on the non-reciprocating part of the slide.

[echotango]

52 minutes ago, RJH said:

 You seem to be missing the point,  uspsa ain't steel challenge 

This. 

[Chris iliff]

20 minutes ago, RJH said:

I  brought that up cause mike more or less  said ss could compete with open on equal footing in USPSA, it can't. I am not missing the point at all, major is more advantageous,  if competing at the highest levels, why would not give yourself every advantage?  You seem to be missing the point,  uspsa ain't steel challenge 

 Never said USPSA was steel challenge. 

 

You didn't miss Mikes point, but you’ve both missed my point. 

 

I am talking about every advantage, just outside the normal paradigm. Which I understand can be difficult to escape.  We have NO IDEA WHAT ADVANTAGES LAY WAITING TO BE DISCOVERED in a completely rethought open platform in minor. It is largely unexplored,...the movers and shakers went off in more more more direction and never looked back. It’s the open paradigm. 

 

So so I’ll ask again,...but I’ll  take the trigger words out. 

 

What could be done to the the open platform in “steel challenge” to return it to a position of dominance? This would probably be a less less less thing. And I’m guessing here because I’m no Smith, but,....No comp, minimum slide,, very short, lightest frame, lightest grip,etc,...???

 

 

 

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

I am talking about every advantage, just outside the normal paradigm. Which I understand can be difficult to escape.  We have NO IDEA WHAT ADVANTAGES LAY WAITING TO BE DISCOVERED in a completely rethought open platform in minor. It is largely unexplored,...the movers and shakers went off in more more more direction and never looked back. It’s the open paradigm. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's been done, it is called pcc.  Open major still wins in USPSA

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

What could be done to the the open platform in “steel challenge” to return it to a position of dominance? This would probably be a less less less thing. And I’m guessing here because I’m no Smith, but,....No comp, minimum slide,, very short, lightest frame, lightest grip,etc,...???

 

 

 

 

Now you have asked a reasonable question

[Chris iliff]

53 minutes ago, RJH said:

It's been done, it is called pcc.  Open major still wins in USPSA

 

 

 

Now you have asked a reasonable question

Rifles  vs handguns?  Not sure that’s even relevant. 

 

Now I’ve asked a reasonable question?  

 

Seems the same to me, I just kept cleaning it up until people didn’t get triggered. 

 

It takes me awhile, but I figure it out, lol. 

 

So so what do you think?

[theWacoKid]

1 hour ago, Chris iliff said:

 

What could be done to the the open platform in “steel challenge” to return it to a position of dominance? This would probably be a less less less thing. And I’m guessing here because I’m no Smith, but,....No comp, minimum slide,, very short, lightest frame, lightest grip,etc,...???

 

The problem with your train of thought is that the open platform is still dominant in steel challenge.  

[RJH]

48 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Rifles  vs handguns?  Not sure that’s even relevant. 

 

 

The epitome of thinking out side the box and coming up with every advantage conceivable except minor, and it still loses to open major in USPSA.  This is why your initial line of thought was so out of whack.  If rifles, that never draw, almost never reload, and sit on target when shot,  can't consistently beat an open gun, a minor pistol don't have a chance  

 

48 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

Now I’ve asked a reasonable question?  

 

 

 

Yes, cause you limited it to Steel challenge, where major scoring and follow up shots are not involved. Otherwise, if talking USPSA open, major is a must to be realistically competitive

 

48 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

 

Seems the same to me, I just kept cleaning it up until people didn’t get triggered. 

 

 

I don't think anyone was triggered, you just have a hard time excepting what has been proven time and again in USPSA matches.  

 

56 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

 

So so what do you think?

 

Steel challenge is kinda lame, but I don't think a light gun that would be easy to start and stop in transition would be a bad idea.  But that being said, haven't light weight shorties been around for some time?  Things like the STI steelmaster and such.  I know KC won with a glock a few years back. But that is really nothing new

[Chris iliff]

 

8 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

 

The problem with your train of thought is that the open platform is still dominant in steel challenge.  

So you don’t see the current CO win as a dethrone?  More a bump in the road?

 

That could be. So rephrase my question a bit. What could be done to the open platform to mitigate loss?  Are there possibilities to explore?  Is it stuck, or can we learn anything from  the CO platform?

[Chris iliff]

8 hours ago, RJH said:

The epitome of thinking out side the box and coming up with every advantage conceivable except minor, and it still loses to open major in USPSA.  This is why your initial line of thought was so out of whack.  If rifles, that never draw, almost never reload, and sit on target when shot,  can't consistently beat an open gun, a minor pistol don't have a chance  

 

 

Yes, cause you limited it to Steel challenge, where major scoring and follow up shots are not involved. Otherwise, if talking USPSA open, major is a must to be realistically competitive

 

 

I don't think anyone was triggered, you just have a hard time excepting what has been proven time and again in USPSA matches.  

 

 

Steel challenge is kinda lame, but I don't think a light gun that would be easy to start and stop in transition would be a bad idea.  But that being said, haven't light weight shorties been around for some time?  Things like the STI steelmaster and such.  I know KC won with a glock a few years back. But that is really nothing new

1st Again, with the rifles and handguns?  

Ok

 

2nd.  Within open, we have only went one way with development. Of course there will ALWAYS be an advantage with MAJOR. I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE. I just wonder how much more we could DECREASE that advantage with a new look at what constitutes an open gun shooting at the other end of the BANG SCALE. Any? Some? Negate completely?  Even it up?

 

3rd. The gun I’m talking about might get royally smeared. But, it hasn’t been PROVEN. NO ONE HAS DEVELOPED THE GUN. Granted it might be a FOOLS errand and that’s why.  Exhausting the talking points is the first step. 

Personally, I probably have more time behind an open gun than most people on this board. I know Exactly what the feel is. There are more sensations and experiences, physically if you will, than shooting any other platform.  

 

4th.  I don’t find it “lame”. But, that’s me. So gun wise, what were the differences between that CO gun that won HOA and the Open gun?  What attributes were different and helped the CO gun have a slight edge? Any attributes? Weight, length,..etc?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris iliff]

14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

 

So in the end consistency wins the match, but for outright performance open is the way.  He was 1 run away from a new world record with the open gun, anybody know what order he shot the stages in?  was stage 2 his last stage? did he know he was shooting for a world record?

Whew!

 

I got to say I missed this. Dang. 

 

That changes it a bit, but I’d still say CO is nipping at Opens butt. 

 

Thanks for posting that. 

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

1st Again, with the rifles and handguns?  

Ok

 

2nd.  Within open, we have only went one way with development. Of course there will ALWAYS be an advantage with MAJOR. I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE. I just wonder how much more we could DECREASE that advantage with a new look at what constitutes an open gun shooting at the other end of the BANG SCALE. Any? Some? Negate completely?  Even it up?

 

3rd. The gun I’m talking about might get royally smeared. But, it hasn’t been PROVEN. NO ONE HAS DEVELOPED THE GUN. Granted it might be a FOOLS errand and that’s why.  Exhausting the talking points is the first step. 

Personally, I probably have more time behind an open gun than most people on this board. I know Exactly what the feel is. There are more sensations and experiences, physically if you will, than shooting any other platform.  

 

4th.  I don’t find it “lame”. But, that’s me. So gun wise, what were the differences between that CO gun that won HOA and the Open gun?  What attributes were different and helped the CO gun have a slight edge? Any attributes? Weight, length,..etc?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't realize that 1,2,and 3 are tied together and basically exactly what you have been talking about in USPSA by now, i am not sure you ever will.  I can explain it to you, but i can't understand it for you.

 

4 The shoot-ability differences *appear* to be little and fairly meaningless in within the realm of steel challenge.  But like has been said numerous times in this thread, a having a dot, only putting one shot on target, everyone is minor, negates most of the advantages of open.  There is also the chance that it is just a oddball occurrence like when a limited gun is HOA at a major USPSA match.  That happens occasionally, but everyone knows that the open gun is the more dominate blaster

[Chris iliff]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 There is also the chance that it is just a oddball occurrence like when a limited gun is HOA at a major USPSA match.  That happens occasionally, ....

Ok. Thanks. Your input has been valuable. That’s good stuff. 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Chris iliff

[MikeBurgess]

I think the real flaw in the logic of a Super fast Super soft Super flat Minor open gun is, other than recoil any "new " thing you can do to a minor gun you can also do to a major one.

The gun can only contribute to accuracy, split speed, and to a lesser extent transition and draw speed.

an typical USPSA/IPSC type stages the vast majority of stage time is spent not shooting, the gun has no affect on this, so in order to overcome the scoring disadvantage of minor you need to be more accurate with much faster splits

The problem is top level open shooters are already able to shoot a major power factor gun very fast and accurately think sub 3 second bill drills at 25 yards, at that kind of performance I don't believe the gun is the limiting factor I think the shooter pressing the trigger is, so in order to make a improvement here (and you would need to make a pretty large one because we are not shooting most of the time) you will need to find a way to make the gun less susceptible to trigger induced movement, and for that to make minor a player it would have to be something that would not work at major pf.

[theWacoKid]

4 hours ago, Chris iliff said:

 

So you don’t see the current CO win as a dethrone?  More a bump in the road?

 

That could be. So rephrase my question a bit. What could be done to the open platform to mitigate loss?  Are there possibilities to explore?  Is it stuck, or can we learn anything from  the CO platform?

 

Not a dethrone, just how it shook out this year.  Being as CO learned everything from open and is basically Open Lite I don't see what analyzing the CO platform is worth.  If it's better, people will bring it into Open, it's totally legal.

 

Most dedicated open steel guns are already smaller, lighter, and shooting minor so they are not USPSA open guns and already follow your logic.  Not enough people truly care about this game anymore to truly push the steel gun envelope.

 

It's no different than a good shooter shooting a good match and winning ProAm with a limited gun.  It's happened.  Does that mean that platform is better?

 

 

[Chris iliff]

1 hour ago, theWacoKid said:

 

Not a dethrone, just how it shook out this year.  Being as CO learned everything from open and is basically Open Lite I don't see what analyzing the CO platform is worth.  If it's better, people will bring it into Open, it's totally legal.

 

Most dedicated open steel guns are already smaller, lighter, and shooting minor so they are not USPSA open guns and already follow your logic.  Not enough people truly care about this game anymore to truly push the steel gun envelope.

 

It's no different than a good shooter shooting a good match and winning ProAm with a limited gun.  It's happened.  Does that mean that platform is better?

 

 

Ahhh, that’s some things to think on. 

 

I was under the the impression that CO has been steadily gaining in popularity and as a result, creeping up the overalls since it’s debut. Better and better shooters are shooting it. 

 

So, seeing it win HOA, plus coupled with the fact that Max outshot his own Open times at the same match, set my wheels in motion. 

Basically seeing two different big names beating Open with it caused me to start the thread. 

 

Not sure I’m seeing much of an open gun difference in steel challenge when we are talking same caliber. Open steel guns in the standard open calibers, look and feel pretty much like the run of the mill open guns in USPSA. But I know they are sprung different. 

 

I appreciate your input and knowledge. 

[Chris iliff]

2 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

 

Not a dethrone, just how it shook out this year.  Being as CO learned everything from open and is basically Open Lite I don't see what analyzing the CO platform is worth.  If it's better, people will bring it into Open, it's totally legal. 

Here, I think, is where we separate in ideas. And, it’s probably my poor ability to properly write what I am trying to express. 

 

I am not talking about bringing CO into Open. That is ridiculous and would result in a beat down if compared straight up. 

 

I’ll admit that Looking at some other results, maybe this year is a fluke. But I’m not ready to go there just yet,...it wasn’t just one good shooter shining on a grooved in platform. So, when it’s more than 1 doing it, even in just one match, maybe it’s something. Ymmv. 

 

I am saying that a CO gun is radically different than an open gun. Open lite is an apropos description, but at the same time it is just a tad misleading. There are tons of mods that you simply can’t do to that CO. But yet there it was, on top. 

 

Does that teach us anything??

[theWacoKid]

43 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Here, I think, is where we separate in ideas. And, it’s probably my poor ability to properly write what I am trying to express. 

 

I am not talking about bringing CO into Open. That is ridiculous and would result in a beat down if compared straight up. 

 

I’ll admit that Looking at some other results, maybe this year is a fluke. But I’m not ready to go there just yet,...it wasn’t just one good shooter shining on a grooved in platform. So, when it’s more than 1 doing it, even in just one match, maybe it’s something. Ymmv. 

 

I am saying that a CO gun is radically different than an open gun. Open lite is an apropos description, but at the same time it is just a tad misleading. There are tons of mods that you simply can’t do to that CO. But yet there it was, on top. 

 

Does that teach us anything??

 

Teaches me that BJ shot like a boss this year.

 

I understand what you're saying.  You want to shift the paradigm in open and solve the problem from an entire new direction based on the perceived advantages of a CO platform.  A CO gun is not radically different from an open gun.  It has the key component, which is the dot.  That is, imo, at least 80% of the advantage of the open gun platform.  

 

Open guns have been built small, large, heavy, light, on plastic platforms, on 2011 platforms, etc. etc.  People have tried stuff in the past, this is nothing new, and I'm saying the advantages you perceive from reading into the results of steel challenge don't actually exist.  Carry optics didn't win Steel Challenge, BJ did.  There's a difference. 

 

Check out KC's scores, using your own logic I'm pretty sure he would strongly reject your premise.  

 

I'm not saying there's no more improvements to be made to the open gun, but I am saying they won't come from analyzing the CO platform.  Everything about the CO platform has been tried in open.  I say think farther out of the box, don't look in the nearby box.

Edited May 24, 2019 by theWacoKid

[Chris iliff]

28 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

Teaches me that BJ shot like a boss this year.

 

I understand what you're saying.  You want to shift the paradigm in open and solve the problem from an entire new direction based on the perceived advantages of a CO platform.  A CO gun is not radically different from an open gun.  It has the key component, which is the dot.  That is, imo, at least 80% of the advantage of the open gun platform.  

 

Open guns have been built small, large, heavy, light, on plastic platforms, on 2011 platforms, etc. etc.  People have tried stuff in the past, this is nothing new, and I'm saying the advantages you perceive from reading into the results of steel challenge don't actually exist.  Carry optics didn't win Steel Challenge, BJ did.  There's a difference. 

 

Check out KC's scores, using your own logic I'm pretty sure he would strongly reject your premise.  

 

I'm not saying there's no more improvements to be made to the open gun, but I am saying they won't come from analyzing the CO platform.  Everything about the CO platform has been tried in open.  I say think farther out of the box, don't look in the nearby box.

Now that’s some good stuff. 

 

As an open shooter, I’d strongly disagree with your assessment of the differences. 

 

Ill stick with “radically” different.

Comps, weight, trigger, grips, rounds, It’s radically different. 

The dot?  That’s a small % compared to the overall. But it’s such a huge physical difference, when you first see an open gun,  it does stand out. 

 

I also don’t agree that everything about CO has been tried in open. 

 

15 years, 10 years solid, shooting 2-4 matches a month in open from April to October.  Hundreds of thousands of rounds. I haven’t seen what your saying, but then,...I don’t claim to have seen or know it all. It’s just my experience. 

 

And a premise or question is just that. I ain’t claiming anything. I’m asking. Probing. Deciding. I haven’t decided yet if it’s worthwhile. 

 

Its a nice process though,...and Enos is the best.

 

Thanks again. 

 

[theWacoKid]

27 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

Ill stick with “radically” different.

Comps, weight, trigger, grips, rounds, It’s radically different. 

The dot?  That’s a small % compared to the overall. But it’s such a huge physical difference, when you first see an open gun,  it does stand out. 

 

That's where we disagree.  The dot makes an open gun.  The fluff such as trigger, weight, grip, porting, comps, etc. are nice and do help in small increments, but they aren't remotely the big hitter that the dot is.

 

 

[Maximis228]

57 minutes ago, Chris iliff said:

15 years, 10 years solid, shooting 2-4 matches a month in open from April to October.  Hundreds of thousands of rounds. I haven’t seen what your saying, but then,...I don’t claim to have seen or know it all. It’s just my experience.

 

Per Number look up... this is a lie.