2011 and Carry optics

[-JCN-]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

For me, this list pretty much explains the whole draw of CO. I personally don't care that much about the reload thing, but I know some people do, and it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings to reload less, lol.

Oh, sorry. I wasn’t clear. 
 

I meant, “don’t have to reload own actual ammunition and can go get store bought ammo available anywhere.”

 

 

So regarding the casual competitor or the guy starting out that wants to pick up Blazer Brass at the LGS instead of trying to come up with a 9 major load, it’s the easy button. 
 

I didn’t shoot USPSA regularly until 150 Syntech came out and became a great off the shelf alternative. 
 

Sorry I wasn’t clear. CO does HAVE to reload on most stages. I was talking about the almost requirement to be a reloader to shoot some of the other divisions competitively. 

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, -JCN- said:

Oh, sorry. I wasn’t clear. 
 

I meant, “don’t have to reload own actual ammunition and can go get store bought ammo available anywhere.”

 

oh, yeah, well I guess that appeals to some people too. I would probably stop shooting uspsa if I had to rely on factory ammo. No way I can afford that for two people, 3 matches/month + retirement savings + dirtbiking + wine and whiskey.

 

I have to work on my own motorcycle to afford riding dirtbikes too. which reminds me, time to change the tranny oil and airfilter and sharpen my chainsaw after yesterday's trail-clearing ride.

[terrydoc]

On 6/22/2022 at 3:49 AM, Boomstick303 said:

 

Not provable because there is no 10 round control group for IPSC. 

 

See how that works.  

Australia and Canada and a couple of Euro countries are 10 round limited for IPSC

 

[cbrussell]

21 hours ago, theroryshow said:

People are pretty good about telling you what they want by their actions. Everyone going to CO, it probably because shooting optics are fun and you don't have to reload as much. You are not going to add optics to production but you can increase the rounds. Just let people use 140mm mags (which most get from the factory) and have fun. The point of all of this is to make it easy and fun to participate. Anytime you are doing something that do not meet those goals then it should be examined. 

 

 

 

 

I agree.

[ddc]

On 7/3/2022 at 10:00 PM, theroryshow said:

People are pretty good about telling you what they want by their actions. Everyone going to CO, it probably because shooting optics are fun and you don't have to reload as much. You are not going to add optics to production but you can increase the rounds. Just let people use 140mm mags (which most get from the factory) and have fun. The point of all of this is to make it easy and fun to participate. Anytime you are doing something that do not meet those goals then it should be examined. 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems that every time someone posts a "let's increase Prod capacity" (often to 15) they get hammered.

 

If the fact that the division is apparently dying is a concern (and that obviously is a bigger deal to some than others) then it seems to me that increasing capacity is worth a trial run.

 

And I'd be ok with going all the way to 141.25 and calling it "carry irons", LOL.

 

It doesn't have to be a permanent change; make it provisional for a year or two and see what happens. It can't get much worse than it already is.

[theroryshow]

Quote

It doesn't have to be a permanent change; make it provisional for a year or two and see what happens. It can't get much worse than it already is.

 

I like the idea of a trial period for 2 years. You could set a simple guideline where if participation goes up by XX% then it stays. Then those that want the rule to stay can try and recruit people into the sport more (a good idea generally) or convince those in our locals to give it try again. 

[TaterHead]

I have yet to see anything in USPSA be “provisional”. Once it gets started, there is no going back.

[cbrussell]

What is so wrong allowing 140 mm magazines in Production? Allowing them in Carry Optics and Production I would think would increase participation in Production and simplify the rules. What was the justification for increasing magazine capacity in Carry Optics? Should be the same for Production; same guns. If not, take them both back to 10 rounds; again, same guns.

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

What is so wrong allowing 140 mm magazines in Production? Allowing them in Carry Optics and Production I would think would increase participation in Production and simplify the rules. What was the justification for increasing magazine capacity in Carry Optics? Should be the same for Production; same guns. If not, take them both back to 10 rounds; again, same guns.

 

I don't really recall any justifications for any of the changes over the last few years. It was more surprise look what we did at the BOD meeting this time.

[BritinUSA]

It takes 5 people (votes) to change the USPSA rule-book, it’s takes about 56 to make changes in IPSC. 
 

I think USPSA should be more transparent with regard to all decisions (in no particular order);

• Who is requesting the change ?
• Do they have a financial interest in the change ?
• What is the objective of the change ?
• How will it improve the sport, enhance skills etc ?
• How will it’s effectiveness be measured ?
• What happens if it causes negative un-intended consequences ?
• What will it cost the membership ?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

It takes 5 people (votes) to change the USPSA rule-book, it’s takes about 56 to make changes in IPSC. 
 

I think USPSA should be more transparent with regard to all decisions (in no particular order);

• Who is requesting the change ?
• Do they have a financial interest in the change ?
• What is the objective of the change ?
• How will it improve the sport, enhance skills etc ?
• How will it’s effectiveness be measured ?
• What happens if it causes negative un-intended consequences ?
• What will it cost the membership ?

 

Can't disagree with any of that.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, cbrussell said:

Allowing them in Carry Optics and Production I would think would increase participation in Production and simplify the rules.

 

IDPA increased the magazine limit to 15 for Stock Service Pistol and left it at 10 for CO and ESP.

 

I'll be paying attention to local match registration numbers to see if SSP numbers per match go up or stay about the same.

 

It's not a direct correlation, but it can be a clue.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

IDPA increased the magazine limit to 15 for Stock Service Pistol and left it at 10 for CO and ESP.

 

I'll be paying attention to local match registration numbers to see if SSP numbers per match go up or stay about the same.

 

It's not a direct correlation, but it can be a clue.

 

It's pretty early on, but my club has been doing the new rules for 2 months now. No real change I can see, still about 8-12 SSP shooters per match. Basically the same people. 

 

Honestly I didn't realize it was that many people shooting it here until just now. That's on par with CO at this club, ESP is less at like 6-8 everything else is basically nonexistent. We have 30-40 shooters total, and 6 matches a month.  

[cbrussell]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Can't disagree with any of that.

[shred]

Step one, ditch the dumb "must have an optic" rule for CO.

 

Step two, 6 months later poll local MDs, SCs and ADs and see how many people are shooting CO with irons.

 

 

[konkapot]

Shred why ditch the "must have optic" rule?

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Step one, ditch the dumb "must have an optic" rule for CO.

 

Step two, 6 months later poll local MDs, SCs and ADs and see how many people are shooting CO with irons.

 

 

this seems like the simplest and most intelligent approach, and would address multiple issues at once without screwing anything up.

Edited July 6, 2022 by motosapiens

[Jeff226]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Step one, ditch the dumb "must have an optic" rule for CO.

 

Step two, 6 months later poll local MDs, SCs and ADs and see how many people are shooting CO with irons.

 

 

This is about as useful as saying "hey let's put 40 S&W light with a perceived (and mostly proven) scoring advantage in with 125 pf minor and let's see which one wins.

 

It is real simple to add a division in the computer and copy paste the rules under the new name if we wanted the true answer.

[Boomstick303]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:37 PM, terrydoc said:

Australia and Canada and a couple of Euro countries are 10 round limited for IPSC

 

And will never see if high capacity mags will change the participation numbers.  Again, not a control group.

[obsessiveshooter]

3 hours ago, shred said:

Step one, ditch the dumb "must have an optic" rule for CO.

 

Step two, 6 months later poll local MDs, SCs and ADs and see how many people are shooting CO with irons.

 

 

I'd shoot CO with irons in a heartbeat.  Trying to beat all the dots would be super fun.  It's basically A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want, but I get to shoot in the division with the deepest field of competitors.  

[obsessiveshooter]

I finally learned what that phrase is autocorrecting for!

[Sinister4]

13 hours ago, shred said:

Step one, ditch the dumb "must have an optic" rule for CO.

 

Step two, 6 months later poll local MDs, SCs and ADs and see how many people are shooting CO with irons.

 

 

Yup  we would move to CO irons for sure, GREAT IDEA and zero reason not to

Edited July 6, 2022 by Sinister4

[Balakay]

42 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

Yup  we would move to CO irons for sure, GREAT IDEA and zero reason not to

THIS is a great idea but shooting your production gun with a magwell and 140 mm mag  in L i m i t e d M i n o r  is unaccecptable?

 

Or shooting a 2011 with a slide mounted dot in Open is unacceptable? 

 

Is the root of all of this nonsense the HOA on practiscore?? 

 

There is already a division for any gun anyone shoots.  

[Boomstick303]

14 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Is the root of all of this nonsense the HOA on practiscore?? 

 

There is already a division for any gun anyone shoots.  

 

  This!!

 

Like I said before, this conversation is getting dumber by the second.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Jim Watson]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:19 AM, ddc said:

And I'd be ok with going all the way to 141.25 and calling it "carry irons"

 

Love it.  The tricked out guns bear no resemblance to the stock pistols that Production started out trying to recruit, so make the call.  

 

18 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

IDPA increased the magazine limit to 15 for Stock Service Pistol and left it at 10 for CO and ESP.

 

I'll be paying attention to local match registration numbers to see if SSP numbers per match go up or stay about the same.

 

That will be an interesting statistic.  I have shot a couple of matches in SSP-15 but find the MDs ahead of me with downloaded starts and 17 shot stages.  Back to ESP for me.