2011 and Carry optics

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

 

Unlimited modifications are the reason why why Open and Limited guns costs many thousands of dollars. The allowed modifications for CO have driven the costs higher too.

if you still shot matches it would be obvious that this is false. its now easier and cheaper to be competitive in CO. you still have the option of the high dollar custom shop guns that dominated production, but now you can buy a cheap plastic gun and do a few cheap things to it that make it fit your hands and your preferences better.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, outerlimits said:

what's wrong with just irons and optics?  minor or major your choice.  no limitations on any mods.  current mag length works as well.  rule book would be 1/2 the size.  and rifles are a different match all together-go away.

 

This is the easiest way to kill USPSA's current popularity and turn it into a mega $ gear race.

 

Dumbest idea ever unless one wants to go back to the 90s.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

The allowed modifications for CO have driven the costs higher too.

 

Where do you compete that you have seen (not heard) this?

[BritinUSA]

• Extended magazine basepads
• After-market triggers
• tungsten guiderods
• weapon lights
• unrestricted slide milling

All of the above have increased the cost of the division.

[RJH]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

• Extended magazine basepads
• After-market triggers
• tungsten guiderods
• weapon lights
• unrestricted slide milling

All of the above have increased the cost of the division.

 

Weren't czs legal in the beginning? Cause I can do all that to a Glock for less than the cost of a tricked up CZ from the custom shop which if I recall was legal in the beginning. Like an Accu shadow

[Johnny_Chimpo]

21 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

• Extended magazine basepads
• After-market triggers
• tungsten guiderods
• weapon lights
• unrestricted slide milling

All of the above have increased the cost of the division.

 

Only the basepads are required to be competitive.  The rest of that stuff is fluff that does little to nothing to improve your competitiveness.

 

Not including the optic, I have less than $200 in stuff on my CO gun (that cost me $550) and that includes $80 worth of basepads.

 

Did you forget that to be competitive in Production one needs to buy 3 - 4 magazines beyond those that come with the gun?  That's at least $75 - $100 right off the bat.

 

You're out of touch.  The cost of firearms and modifications is absolutely not a barrier to entry into CO because competitive firearms are available right out of the box with little or no modifications needed for between $500 and $1000.

 

Those who blow money on stuff like drunk sailors are not being forced to.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[shred]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:42 AM, Joe4d said:

Modified was a division before its time. Didnt have dependable enough slide mounted optics  yet,
For those that dont recall. Modified, was basically anything goes as long as it fits in a box, and maybe had a weight limit.

 

As the 2011 (and still reigning) US Modified Champion I guess I can chime in here.

.40 cal or better for Major (at 170 PF).  Fits the box in ready condition.  (see avatar). That was it.  No weight limit.

 

It was extremely fun and perfect for engineer-types.  That said, the guns themselves combine the worst of Open and Limited put together-- a hard-kicking noisy gun with no rounds on board and fragile custom parts.

 

It wasn't the dots that were the main problem (you could run a full size C-more if you wanted), it was that every part on the gun was customized and there are few countries where that's easy to do.  The largest one of those; the US, barely recognized it and only at one match a year, so it was only popular in a few places.  When IPSC's tech people decided it would be easier to implement Classic (aka Single Stack) by replacing a division versus adding a new one, all the regions that didn't give a crap about Modified voted it out.

[BritinUSA]

It didn’t help the cause when IPSC stated that they were thinking of getting rid of it a few years prior. That news pretty much stopped anyone new from getting into the division, and likely drove a few out of it.

 

I liked the look of these guns, and you’re right about the engineering, and that they were a dog to shoot.

[motosapiens]

21 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

• Extended magazine basepads
• After-market triggers
• tungsten guiderods
• weapon lights
• unrestricted slide milling

All of the above have increased the cost of the division.

most people ignore the last three items. imho aftermarket triggers actually *reduce* costs, because now you can put a nice trigger in any $600 gun instead of having to buy  $2000custom shop gun that comes with a nice trigger.

 

im working co nationals this weekend and id say 1in 20 competitors wasted money on a light. its clearly not required. the people who are doing the best on my stage are the ones that practice and prepare the best, and many of them are using cheap plastic guns.

 

for people that aren’t bitterly living in the past, the current rules are working great, and people are really enjoying themselves.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 9/9/2022 at 12:42 PM, Joe4d said:

Should just stop the hypocrisy and just call it what it is... A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want. and call CO Open minor or better yet,,, Modified.
Modified was a division before its time. Didnt have dependable enough slide mounted optics  yet,
For those that dont recall. Modified, was basically anything goes as long as it fits in a box, and maybe had a weight limit.

 

 

Now that I know that modified was, LOL if you think that would have been viable and led to the growth in the sport......

 

Expensive custom guns, 170PF, 40S&W..........I don't know who's more out of touch with the sport: you or the brit.

 

Not surprising since neither of you compete any more.

[Joe4d]

16 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Now that I know that modified was, LOL if you think that would have been viable and led to the growth in the sport......

 

Expensive custom guns, 170PF, 40S&W..........I don't know who's more out of touch with the sport: you or the brit.

 

Not surprising since neither of you compete any more.

It wasnt viable at the time. Why its gone.. minor scoring and todays slide mounted optics, ? 

[mrvip27]

I guess at the CO nationals meeting, it was said that USPSA is currently in talks with factories that want new divisions to accommodate their guns.

 

So who knows what is going to come of that.

[Nathanb]

2 hours ago, mrvip27 said:

I guess at the CO nationals meeting, it was said that USPSA is currently in talks with factories that want new divisions to accommodate their guns.

 

So who knows what is going to come of that.

This has been going on. It’s staccato who gave the middle finger to competitors when they went Timmy, atlas and infinity want it so they can sell more guns. 

[obsessiveshooter]

I've been saying for years that my CZ TS with the hinged trigger is no worse or better than a 2011.  I'm thinking I might have been wrong though, because when I shoot my .45 1911 at the same speed, the front sight tracks more vertically and the holes in the target are closer together. 

So, now I honestly do think a 2011 in CO will become the most competitive option if they open the door to it, and it will be almost a compulsory purchase for those that are serious about CO.  

A big part of the fun of USPSA is the buying, tuning and tinkering.  So if they change the rules, there's that upside. We all know now what motivates the BOD, so how could this rule change not go through anyway? The only reason it hasn't yet is probably they haven't worked out a sufficiently sweet deal with a manufacturer.  

[BritinUSA]

I doubt they will add the 2011 to CO, it would neuter the existing equipment that many people have already purchased, then again USPSA has a track record of doing precisely that.

 

I think they are looking at Limited Optics; for those with an existing Limited gun, the milling of the slide and a good dot would probably be around $800. That’s a chunk of money, but a lot cheaper than a whole new custom gun.

 

If they allow 2011 guns in CO then they would most likely be minor which would discourage people from modifying their Limited guns thereby drive even more new-gun sales.
 

I think if USPSA cares anything about the existing members they will keep 2011’s out of CO, and if an LO division happens then it should be as close to existing Limited rules as possible, just add an Optic.

 

If they vary from the above, then it will clear that the vendors are driving the process here.

[BritinUSA]

I doubt they will specify 2011 for CO, if they open it up they will just drop the DA/SA, this brings in all the other hammer-guns, Tanfoglio, CZ , Alien etc.

 

The red dot on a 2011 (or most guns without a firing pin block) can be mounted significantly lower than what we are now seeing in CO.

Edited September 11, 2022 by BritinUSA

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

The red dot on a 2011 (or most guns without a firing pin block) can be mounted significantly lower than what we are now seeing in CO.

 

That's not an issue.  Anyone can get used to any kind of index out of the holster.

[shred]

This ^ .  I see no difference between a dovetail mounted dot and a milled-in dot on the clock.

 

Plus Shadow 2's haven't had a firing pin block since ever.

 

[shred]

16 hours ago, Joe4d said:

It wasnt viable at the time. Why its gone.. minor scoring and todays slide mounted optics, ? 

Shooters want "easy button" shooting--

 

• Cheap factory ammo
• Low recoil
• Minimal mag changes
• Not hassling with iron sights.
• Light triggers
• Cheap guns

 

It's no wonder CO is popular, it hits nearly all of those right out of the box.   Also not too surprising why PCC doesn't make people do hard things like shoot with only one hand or turn and likely also why rimfire steel challenge with a dot is way more popular than iron sights.

 

[Joe4d]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

Shooters want "easy button" shooting--

 

• Cheap factory ammo
• Low recoil
• Minimal mag changes
• Not hassling with iron sights.
• Light triggers
• Cheap guns

 

It's no wonder CO is popular, it hits nearly all of those right out of the box.   Also not too surprising why PCC doesn't make people do hard things like shoot with only one hand or turn and likely also why rimfire steel challenge with a dot is way more popular than iron sights.

 

I still think if instead of CO,, they simply went with a 140 ish MM mag rule in production  it would have taken off as well.
Just feel like the popularity of CO has more to do with the perception a sub $1k gun is competitive,, 9mm minor scoring and being able to use full magazines.. As mentioned though I am out of touch with USPSA.. 
Do seem to hear alot more chatter and see people shooting A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want.. 10 years ago I never heard of it.

 

[mrvip27]

There is talks it is going to be Limited Optics.

[cbrussell]

The more I think about it, Limited Optics and keep it major scoring. This would preserve CO as is, however, it would most likely hurt Limited. There should be a place for major iron sighted guns. Maybe just eliminate DA/SA from CO, however, that might eliminate a bunch of guns, but the manufacturers all seem to have SA guns. Probably the easiest way to go. Is SA really that big of advantage over the newer lighter trigger pulls of the striker fired guns? Really a hard decision to make. Might just leave everything alone for a while. One thing I would definitely do is change Production magazine capacity to that of CO.

 

[shred]

Limited (major/minor) with just a dot thrown onto a Lim gun is interesting but what does it solve?  The 9mm Stacatto/CZ TS/Springfield Prodigy shooters aren't going to be real competitive scored minor scoring vs dotted .40 cal Edges.  Maybe it's a way to get the SA triggers in and move them to CO later when it becomes obvious the trigger mechanism matters little...

 

Probably will be justified by "give aging iron-sight pistol shooters a place to compete" ... because geezers are the future of our sport, natch.

 

Hopefully the people pushing it have better answers than I do.

[Joe4d]

would think it would need to be scored minor. 40 is kinda fading

 

[shred]

.40 is way more alive than .38 super, but lots of people still shoot that.

 

Minor-only is a poor choice, but they'll probably do it anyway.