The 2" belt inner to gun rule

[Bergie]

"...from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device."

This rule is very simple if you're not trying to read other stuff into it.

Both the handgun (in the holster) and mags/speedloaders (in their pouches) must be in compliance with the 2" rule. This does not mean that the reloading device is on the gun. It means that the mag or speedloader that is in it's pouch on your belt must be within 2" of the inner belt.

[Sarge]

I'll make a few points here and then you can go back to your regularly scheduled arguing.

Regarding rule 5.2.5:

First, the 2 inch measurement is taken from the grip, which is the part with the scales or grip panels on it, to the inside of the inner belt up against the body. Everybody I've ever asked to adjust their holster did so willingly and without complaint, and I've helped a few people with that adjustment. I've never made that measurement off the body, fwiw. If you continue to read the rules in that section, you'll see that it only mentions having to comply. There is no penalty for non-compliance up to the point that you are requested to make the adjustment. If, after making the adjustment, you move it back when the RM or RO isn't looking, and get caught, then the provisions of 10.6 would apply. I've never had to do that. And, as some of you have mentioned, it's more noticeable when the gun or magazine (reloading device) is WAY out there. Sticks out like a sore holster?

It's a simple matter of complying with the rule when or if you get caught, and there is no provision for moving to Open, since Open division shooters must comply as well.

I will say this: almost every time I've been called to measure a competitor's equipment, or noticed it myself, the competitor had no idea that there was a 2 inch limit. I don't consider that cheating. Non-compliance once you've been instructed to adjust the equipment is a different matter, however. See 10.6.

See 5.2.5.2 and 5.2.5.3. If your anatomical considerations preclude getting the gun or magazine within the 2 inches, the RM has some leeway, and he can also require you to move or adjust your equipment.

The grip, as I said, is the grip panel or scale, not the magwell, not the safety, not the magazine release button. Look at the picture, Appendix E2. You'll note that the measurement is high up on the grip, but it's still on the grip, not the safety, cocking lever, scope, etc.

The slide stop (or slide release) lever is not a reloading device. Neither are your hands, the magazine release button, the magwell--you get the picture. Magazines, speedloaders, and moon clips are reloading devices. We don't have an official definition of a "reloading device" because it's pretty well spelled out in the appendices, and we didn't think we needed one. Again, look at the pictures in Appendix E2.

Also, take note of the text in Appendix E2, which is definitely a part of the rule book:

(All Divisions)

In accordance with Rule 5.2.5, the maximum lateral distance of the handgun and mag/speedloaders from the inner side of the belt is specified in Appendix D, Item 10.

Which says:

Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt

Handgun and Mags - 2”

Note that this applies to all Divisions, and is in the Division requirements section of the Appendices. No mention of "reloading device" in here, so I doubt that an arbitration would get you much, except a lighter wallet. You'd still have to adjust your equipment.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion, based on many years of dealing with the rules, competitors, and matches. But I believe it to be the right call.

Carry on.

PS: A field expedient way to measure is to slide an overlay between the inner belt and the grip or magazine.

Troy,

Nice post. I appreciate that you are trying to make it sound so simple. But I could not help notice all of the little caveats you made such as:

I doubt that an arbitration would get you much You doubt? But do you KNOW.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion, based on many years of dealing with the rules, competitors, and matches. But I believe it to be the right call. Unless you are going to RM every match in the country how can your opinion be taken as fact?

A field expedient way to measure is to slide an overlay between the inner belt and the grip or magazine. We already discussed the fact that the overlay is actually more than 2".

And I am in no way trying to argue about any of this. But as long as you have opinions that means other RM's will have opinions. And it's a virtual certainty that those opinions will differ at some point.

I hope you understand what I am trying to get at here.

[Red Ryder]

Anybody know if the 2" rule is from the inside of the inner belt to the frame of the gun or from the closest part of the gun (for example, if you've got an extended safety, does the measurement go from the safety to the inside of the inner belt?) Trying to setup a Limited rig...

Dude! You sure do know how to stir up the forum!!!

[blairmckenzie1]

will the measurement always be taken from the top of the belt? I'm good from the bottom edge of the belt but not from the top. The rule seems to read "from where it its attached to the belt".

Edited February 1, 2014 by blairmckenzie1

[Nik Habicht]

There is no move to Open. Period.

Our way is simpler to measure and to understand, IMO; IPSC language calls for measuring the handgun grip as well. I can imagine the controversy that would cause if we can't seem to decide where to measure here.

And, lastly, what is an NIH mindset?

Troy

Maybe I'm dense Troy -- and that's entirely possible......

But how is a holster at three inches from the inner belt during a course of fire, different from a holster forward of the hip during the course of fire? Are they not both violations of the divisional requirements? If I'm wrong on this, I'd like to know......

....and for the record, I've never sent a competitor to open for anything having to do with holster position, because folks have always graciously adjusted their holsters if they were noted to be out of position upon arrival at a stage....

[whitedog]

Thanks Troy. As usual yer explanation is good.

Now to the "opinion" and "experience" part.

It would be awesome if all range officials were on the same page with things, but they are not. I believe the rule,as written, is pretty clear. The results for noncompliance, not so much.

A scoring over lay is greater than 2". Not by much, but it is. If that is used, is it not just "winging" it? Will we need a gauge, as is used with mags? I'm going to shim my blade tech today, just to be sure though.

Oh, and ARB's are tricky. Seen a few go either way. ?

[Sarge]

A scoring over lay is greater than 2". Not by much, but it is. If that is used, is it not just "winging" it? Will we need a gauge, as is used with mags?

That's what we need, a holster gauge! I might make one.

[Gary Stevens]

As Nik said, what is appropriate after a shooter has shot previous stages with illegal equipment, i.e. holster that is out of compliance.

The "no move to Open" is great if the holster is caught before shooting a stage, but what happens after?

We expect the RO's at the first stage of the day to look over the shooters for obvious equipment situations, but you can't count on it. For 3 or 4 years in a row I had found illegal equipment at the Single Stack match after the shooters had completed multiple stages.

I moved a shooter to Open at the Bluegrass match because of a DOH holster in Single Stack. He had shot more than one stage with it. Should I have just allowed him to replace the holster? If that is the correct answer, I owe my shooter an apology.

[atbarr]

Water under the bridge Gary.

[Gary Stevens]

Not to me sir.

[outerlimits]

"...from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device."

This rule is very simple if you're not trying to read other stuff into it.

Both the handgun (in the holster) and mags/speedloaders (in their pouches) must be in compliance with the 2" rule. This does not mean that the reloading device is on the gun. It means that the mag or speedloader that is in it's pouch on your belt must be within 2" of the inner belt.

If this was formula 1, some bright forward thinking person would just add a little raised tab to the grip panel to comply.

[juan]

"...from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device."

This rule is very simple if you're not trying to read other stuff into it.

Both the handgun (in the holster) and mags/speedloaders (in their pouches) must be in compliance with the 2" rule. This does not mean that the reloading device is on the gun. It means that the mag or speedloader that is in it's pouch on your belt must be within 2" of the inner belt.

If this was formula 1, some bright forward thinking person would just add a little raised tab to the grip panel to comply.

your a genious, this mabe easier than changing the holster setup.

[Poppa Bear]

Maybe just get rid of the distance requirement and stipulate that the gun must be attached to the belt with the backstrap not being any lower than the top of the belt or bottom of the belt? We can easily adapt to drawing from locations in front of the hip or behind the hip, above the belt or just below the belt. We do not adapt so well to reaching out away from our bodies. If I had a holster positioned so that it was 4" away from my belt I would tend to shove my hand into the space between the gun and my belt. At around 1- 1/2" to 2" my hand will come down on the butt.

[justaute]

22.2 might prevent the suggested F1 approach -- at least for the Production division, anyway.

"Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest."

"...from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device."


This rule is very simple if you're not trying to read other stuff into it.

Both the handgun (in the holster) and mags/speedloaders (in their pouches) must be in compliance with the 2" rule. This does not mean that the reloading device is on the gun. It means that the mag or speedloader that is in it's pouch on your belt must be within 2" of the inner belt.

If this was formula 1, some bright forward thinking person would just add a little raised tab to the grip panel to comply.

[outerlimits]

F1 is open!

Remember the holster rules required a covered trigger? Suddenly a limcat holster is born!

Edited February 1, 2014 by outerlimits

[Doug S]

I think Bergie got it right on the rule. This rule is basic to the position of the gun and mags, not the reloading devices attached to the gun! Now it's time for me to go check my equipment and make any adjustments required.

Doug

[Ross Carter]

Holster rules are a bag of worms that usually don't take into consideration body type or any physical challenges a shooter might have. I wish we would avoid them. Looking at the pic showing how to measure that 2" it looks to me that what is important is belt and holster thickness and holster tilt to a smaller degree. It's as if we all should have flat belly's and 28 inch waists, most of the top guys probably fit that dimension more or less but for the rest of us.. Looking again at the pic measuring that critical 2 inches, someone with a 30 inch belt meeting that 2" requirement will have the butt of his gun hanging way out there if I understand how this is enforced. Take the average USPSA nutritional over achiever with the 44 inch belt and the butt of his gun may not clear his body.

In the past any holster rules seemed to aim at gun butt's sticking out too far, too low slung, front clearance too low, or possibly addressing safety concerns. I'm not sure what this rule addresses. My personal think is that holster rules in USPSA ought to be minimal and focused mostly on safety. The rest get's sorted out in competition. Over the years I've been involved there has always been this group, identified by the letter P nowadays it seems that want concealed carry holster rules more or less. Perhaps the Production rules allowed them to get their nose into the tent, I don't know. I don't like holster rules for SS but can live with it if it doesn't turn into CCW. Open, Limited, and L10 should be left alone, let people experiment the good stuff rises to the top. If I want to shoot CCW rules and COF there is another sport for that.

[sperman]

22.2 might prevent the suggested F1 approach -- at least for the Production division, anyway.

"Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest."

Except that aftermarket grips are allowed in production. That's it's own thread, and IMO, the contradiction was never really resolved. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188350

[Jaxshooter]

With respect to us fat boys that is why the measurement can be taken with the belts and holster laying down flat.

[Nik Habicht]

Not to me sir.

And that's why I strive to be like Gary, and Troy, and George, and a host of other terrific RMs and RMIs.....

[Thomas H]

As Nik said, what is appropriate after a shooter has shot previous stages with illegal equipment, i.e. holster that is out of compliance.

The "no move to Open" is great if the holster is caught before shooting a stage, but what happens after?

We expect the RO's at the first stage of the day to look over the shooters for obvious equipment situations, but you can't count on it. For 3 or 4 years in a row I had found illegal equipment at the Single Stack match after the shooters had completed multiple stages.

I moved a shooter to Open at the Bluegrass match because of a DOH holster in Single Stack. He had shot more than one stage with it. Should I have just allowed him to replace the holster? If that is the correct answer, I owe my shooter an apology.

I think (so this is just my opinion) that this potentially is based on the "did you see it?" requirement of the rules.

For example---if a shooter used a DOH in single stack, then obviously any stage shot with it would be against the rules. As he had shot stages with it, penalties should apply.

However, if someone has a Production holster slightly ahead of the hip bone when they come to one stage, or another shooter has a gun belt where the holster/outer belt section are away from the inner belt section so that the grip is more than 2" from the inner belt---then you instruct them to fix it prior to shooting the stage. Do you know that their holster was out of compliance on a previous stage? No. You just know it is out of compliance right now. So---no move to Open or shooting for no score. They just have to fix the issue.

If, on the other hand, a shooter has these issues after the Make Ready command, then it gets significantly more serious.

I do think that for this sort of thing, it would be useful to make sure that the CROs communicate with each other at major matches if they find a competitor who needs their equipment adjusted in this fashion. If it gets fixed prior to shooting one stage, but they "adjust" it back for an advantage prior to the next stage, and the next CRO sees it again out of compliance, then we have a sportsmanship issue. That's another topic, though.

If I'm reading the rules correctly, no penalties apply for failure to be in compliance with the 2" rule UNLESS it is known that it was out of compliance during the course of fire. Walking up to a stage, getting checked, and finding a shooter out of compliance simply means that they are instructed to fix the issue.

[ac4wordplay]

As Nik said, what is appropriate after a shooter has shot previous stages with illegal equipment, i.e. holster that is out of compliance.

The "no move to Open" is great if the holster is caught before shooting a stage, but what happens after?

We expect the RO's at the first stage of the day to look over the shooters for obvious equipment situations, but you can't count on it. For 3 or 4 years in a row I had found illegal equipment at the Single Stack match after the shooters had completed multiple stages.

I moved a shooter to Open at the Bluegrass match because of a DOH holster in Single Stack. He had shot more than one stage with it. Should I have just allowed him to replace the holster? If that is the correct answer, I owe my shooter an apology.

I think (so this is just my opinion) that this potentially is based on the "did you see it?" requirement of the rules.

For example---if a shooter used a DOH in single stack, then obviously any stage shot with it would be against the rules. As he had shot stages with it, penalties should apply.

However, if someone has a Production holster slightly ahead of the hip bone when they come to one stage, or another shooter has a gun belt where the holster/outer belt section are away from the inner belt section so that the grip is more than 2" from the inner belt---then you instruct them to fix it prior to shooting the stage. Do you know that their holster was out of compliance on a previous stage? No. You just know it is out of compliance right now. So---no move to Open or shooting for no score. They just have to fix the issue.

...

I like it when the competitor argues and says "But I've shot the last three stages with my equipment in exactly this position..."

[GrumpyOne]

As Nik said, what is appropriate after a shooter has shot previous stages with illegal equipment, i.e. holster that is out of compliance.

The "no move to Open" is great if the holster is caught before shooting a stage, but what happens after?

We expect the RO's at the first stage of the day to look over the shooters for obvious equipment situations, but you can't count on it. For 3 or 4 years in a row I had found illegal equipment at the Single Stack match after the shooters had completed multiple stages.

I moved a shooter to Open at the Bluegrass match because of a DOH holster in Single Stack. He had shot more than one stage with it. Should I have just allowed him to replace the holster? If that is the correct answer, I owe my shooter an apology.

AT would be glad to hear that!

[Gary Stevens]

And as soon as I am convinced I made the wrong call, he will hear it loud and clear

[Doug S]

Well, after checking my holster, I was at 2.5 inches! I use a Ghost holster, so it is fully adjustable. I had to tilt it back in towards the top, then my slide racker hit my belt. So then I turned it so the bottom of my grip was closer to the belt. Now it is time to practice my draw since the holster doesn't sit the same.

I think my biggest concern is that OPEN is being restricted. What's next?

Doug