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ac4wordplay

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    Alex Clark

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  1. Hopefully mods will move this to the IDPA rules section so that some people don't keep getting upset... As to the OP: as described, it sounds like terrible stage design. Ugh! I'd be suspicious of the quality of such a match, and would probably choose to shoot elsewhere.
  2. Seriously? Check the USPSA rule book's appendix A3 glossary definition of "handling" - doesn't it still include the phrase "...while the trigger is functionally accessible" ?
  3. Out of curiosity, how often do ROs here carefully observe the competitor's ULASC process? Who here issues a 10.5.9 when they see it at ULASC? Who pretends not to see it, or to be uncertain that it occurred? Who chooses not to be that observant?
  4. People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns.They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded. I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me. The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it. DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/)that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5. As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at local level need to be on top of it"? I don't see where DNROI said it's not a violation. Brett, I've asked about this in two threads (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375, and http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), and DNROI has commented in both but hasn't directly answered the questions that I've asked. His comments have included (and been consistent in both threads) this: "The present USPSA MG rules do not cover this situation completely, but we are working on making sure we have rules in place to cover this. Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to transport and handle, but muzzle direction upon bagging/unbagging is not directly addressed." That is not a statement that the events described (the events that started the threads) were a violation of USPSA MG rules. If DNROI considered the events to be a violation of USPSA MG rules, then a statement clearly articulating that, and explaining the rules, should have been made, so that competitors and ROs can conduct themselves appropriately. DNROI's statement, and the RM's action at the match that started the threads, both indicate that no violation occurred in their minds. If you can point me to anything that I may have overlooked which indicates that DNROI found the events (that started the threads) to be violations of current (2014) USPSA MG rules, I'd appreciate it - it may help my understanding of the situation. In the Enos thread, MarkCo posted (post #32) this: "USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed. The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not."
  5. People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns. They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded. I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me. The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it. DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/) that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5. As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at the local level need to be on top of it"?
  6. Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong? Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong? I didn't say that I asked why he was wrong. Thanks for answering. I was curious. Some people think that DNROI, simply due to the title, can't be wrong.
  7. Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar. Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong? Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?
  8. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun.
  9. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2?
  10. On the USPSA forum (same OP, here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), DNROI commented on the issue in the OP, and stated: "Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to transport and handle, but muzzle direction upon bagging/unbagging is not directly addressed [by the present USPSA MG rules]." That comment prompted a few more thoughts and questions. The (present) February 2014 USPSA Multigun rule book (http://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2015/RifleShotgunMultigunRules.pdf) covers transportation under 5.2.3 (and there are some requirements and restrictions), but I can't find a rule that states that " Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to [...] handle" - where is this found? This ("safe to [...] handle") includes pointing the gun at staff/competitors/spectators?The (present) February 2014 USPSA Multigun rule book covers casing and uncasing under 2.5.2.1. As it's a sub-section of 2.5.2, and is explicitly permitted at a safety area, it logically follows that it's not permitted outside of a safety area. 2.5.2 includes a requirement that the "firearm is pointed in a safe direction", and states that "violations are subject to match disqualification". Why would handling at a safety area require that the "firearm is pointed in a safe direction", if handling outside the safety area allows firearms to be pointed at people?
  11. The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported. Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd. Who was the RM? Brett, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues. Respectfully, ac Range Officers need to know who the RM is that says it's OK to point guns at R.O.'s. Brett, That's an excellent point, and I support your reason for wanting a name. I'm not sure how to deal with that. Someone will probably tell you, but I don't plan to identify anybody in this thread. If you've read this thread closely and with your stated concern in mind, then you've paid attention to posts by a couple of RMI and the positions that they've taken. You may find that information useful. Respectfully, ac
  12. The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported. Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling. The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd. Who was the RM? Brett, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues. Respectfully, ac
  13. Thanks for participating Nik. Your experience with MG may be limited to outlaw matches, but I think your experience with USPSA, USPSA rule books, and MD and RM duties would allow you to form an opinion. In the outlaw MG matches you were involved with, what was the result when/if a firearm was pointed at a staff member or competitor or observer?
  14. Gary, Thanks for contributing, I like this! I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you. ever heard of the rulebook? Terrydoc, Yes, of course, and it usually works quite well at USPSA matches (there is a rule book to reference). I've been to plenty of non-USPSA matches that don't have a rule book - maybe they have a sheet of paper with some rules on it (maybe they don't even have that much formalized) - they rely on word of mouth from the MD. Are you unaware that such matches occur?
  15. Gary, Thanks for contributing, I like this! I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you.
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