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The 2" belt inner to gun rule


cpa5oh

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I brought this up to the BOD recently. Personally I don't see the reason for it other than in Production and SS. My normal default is if you can't show me a reason the rule addresses something that needs to be addressed, get rid of it. This is one of my pet peeves. There is no advantage to pushing the holster further and further away from the belt past a certain point. After that it just moves around more and makes the draw more difficult. It's also more likely to get caught on props. My thoughts were to let the shooters decide how far out they wanted to go. It didn't go over well. If you really have heartburn with a rule contact your AD and let them know. I've had more than a few changes of heart after talking to shooters.

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I wonder what would happen in a case where your holster would not permit such a modification?

You shoot for no score of course.

Actually, since even open division has the same 2 inch requirement, you would shoot for no score per 6.2.5.1.

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I wonder what would happen in a case where your holster would not permit such a modification?

You shoot for no score of course.

Actually, since even open division has the same 2 inch requirement, you would shoot for no score per 6.2.5.1.

Yup. Reading through the thread again I saw the reference to 6.2.5.1. I was looking for an older rule book online but can't seem to find one - is the application of this rule new for 2014 or is it one of those rules that's always been there but just not enforced?

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I wonder what would happen in a case where your holster would not permit such a modification?

You shoot for no score of course.

Actually, since even open division has the same 2 inch requirement, you would shoot for no score per 6.2.5.1.

Yup. Reading through the thread again I saw the reference to 6.2.5.1. I was looking for an older rule book online but can't seem to find one - is the application of this rule new for 2014 or is it one of those rules that's always been there but just not enforced?

the 2014 rule book made it the grip... before it was any part of the gun.... IIRC

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I wonder what would happen in a case where your holster would not permit such a modification?

You shoot for no score of course.
Actually, since even open division has the same 2 inch requirement, you would shoot for no score per 6.2.5.1.
Yup. Reading through the thread again I saw the reference to 6.2.5.1. I was looking for an older rule book online but can't seem to find one - is the application of this rule new for 2014 or is it one of those rules that's always been there but just not enforced?

The rule has always been there but they just clarified that you now measure to the grip. Previously it said to the closest body side surface which most people took to include slide rackers, extended safeties and optic mounts. That is a big change, especially for the open guys.

I think it also is rarely enforced. I know the few competitors that I have had to make correct their equipment in this regard have looked at me like I had two heads. I don't think most people have even heard of this rule even though it is clearly in the the rule book.

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Edited my post.

Always been a rule but I guess I am the only guy to ever see it get checked.

I will be this gets checked more than most think. I doubt staff walks every shooter through the gauntlet at a match but any good RM MD CRO RO eyeballs everybody's gear. Do some sneak by? Sure but not the gear that is way out of spec

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I hate rules that aren't strictly enforced - seems to me it invites screwing with competitors selectively. I'll be within 2", but frankly if I were a little further out I think I'd benefit...I struggle getting that thumb in position in any dropped holster with the gun inside of 2" that I've tried. And that's fine...but if I'm gonna forgo an advantage I'd like for everyone else to, also, without me having to play bird dog.

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Absolutely correct. I added washers to mine and the VZs sit 1 7/8" from the inner belt

Where did you put the washers? The only place I can think of that would cause the holster to cant closer to my body is the very bottom on on the offset mount. Is that where you put them? I'm attaching a photo of my holster. I will probably put a washer in there just to play it safe.

post-50397-0-45293200-1391042964_thumb.j

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Absolutely correct. I added washers to mine and the VZs sit 1 7/8" from the inner belt

Where did you put the washers? The only place I can think of that would cause the holster to cant closer to my body is the very bottom on on the offset mount. Is that where you put them? I'm attaching a photo of my holster. I will probably put a washer in there just to play it safe.

You got it. Bottom screw, washers between mount and holster. Had to move around some screws, but all-in-all, I'm satisfied.

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This is a rediculous rule for Open and also Limited in my opinion. What is the reasoning for this rule?

I agree. Open should be open, including holster placement.

Why should open be different ? What is the intent of this rule?

Tom

For one thing because because open has always been the place for innovation of gear, so if someone figures out next year that a chest mounted mag pouch produces the fastest reloads, they should be able to do that. Or to use a holster with six inches of standoff......

Also because it creates a division where violators of this rule from other divisions can still play for score.....

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I have always tried to enforce this rule vigorously. Most folks think that, if they can't fit a scoring overlay between their gun and their body, they are OK - those people are WRONG! I even went to the trouble of making some gauges from a chopped-up Home Depot ruler to make the point. The other surprisingly common holster position violation I see is 5.2.7.2 (I say "surprising" because you have to try pretty hard to violate this rule):

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

However, to put this rule, and 5.2.5, in context, being non-compliant does not automatically bust the shooter to "shooting for fun". The rules simply indicate that the shooter MUST immediately adjust their equipment into compliance, and may not be allowed to start a stage while not in compliance. I usually send the shooter to the safety area to fix their stuff, and most are willing to do so without complaining. If they do resist, or if they deliberately adjust back into non-compliance for a later stage, they could be subject to 10.6.1. I have had a handful of shooters (usually super seniors or super chubbies) who can't comply because of physical limitations... sometimes I will ask the RM to give special dispensation (which they have the discretion to do).

Oh, and for the record, I'd prefer that all holster position requirements be eliminated for Open division too.

Edited by StealthyBlagga
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How do you handle a shooter that comes to your stage with the below the top of the belt issue, but has already shot a number of stages?

Unlike the gun, the belt equipment is adjustable by design so it is impossible for me to say whether the shooter was or was not in compliance for previous stages - I have to believe in the professionalism and attentiveness of the ROs on those previous stages, and trust that they would not have started any shooter who was not in compliance. To answer your question directly, I would instruct them to fix their gear before shooting my stage, and leave it at that.

One other comment: At major IPSC matches, each shooter is issued an equipment card listing their equipment type and position. As they arrive at each stage, the CRO inspects their equipment and signs the card to confirm they are still in compliance. Any warnings, such as for non-compliant equipment positioning, get recorded on the card. Once warned, further violations result in procedural penalties. I like this approach, and sometimes wish USPSA has a similar system.

Edited by StealthyBlagga
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Measured my blade tech while wearing it-wee bit over 2". Removed it and measured from the inner belt to the grip-1.867" Not sure why the variation, but rule states measurement can be done removed. Check it both ways if it's close.

Oh...a wee bit was .119". Yes, it took a bit to do.

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Measured my blade tech while wearing it-wee bit over 2". Removed it and measured from the inner belt to the grip-1.867" Not sure why the variation, but rule states measurement can be done removed. Check it both ways if it's close.

Oh...a wee bit was .119". Yes, it took a bit to do.

This is the case with mine too. Just laying on a table with both belts and the gun holstered, it measures "good". But while I'm wearing it, the belt has just enough flex that the weight of the gun will pull the measurement to just over 2".

What would the RO do? Allow you to remove everything (while keeping the gun holstered) so he can re-measure?

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Measured my blade tech while wearing it-wee bit over 2". Removed it and measured from the inner belt to the grip-1.867" Not sure why the variation, but rule states measurement can be done removed. Check it both ways if it's close.

Oh...a wee bit was .119". Yes, it took a bit to do.

This is the case with mine too. Just laying on a table with both belts and the gun holstered, it measures "good". But while I'm wearing it, the belt has just enough flex that the weight of the gun will pull the measurement to just over 2".

What would the RO do? Allow you to remove everything (while keeping the gun holstered) so he can re-measure?

Bladetech holster user here as well. I spent several minutes yesterday getting my wife help me measure. Off the body it seems complaint but on it doesn't and I attribute that to belt flex and pistol weight. Given that the rule says it can be measured either on or off I would think the RO would have to honor your request to measure with the equipment off. I plan to shim mine so that it is complaint when worn. I tend to think that as long as you're not obviously out of compliance that no one is going to say anything about it.

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Use a two piece belt such as CR Speed and the setup will usually hit the 2 1/4 inch mark, same set up with a one piece belt and it usually will be within the 2 inch rule with no modifications to the holster.

Check a production gun in a Bladetech DOH holster. I bet 90% of them are beyond 2", if the user hasn't bent the hanger or installed shims.

Edited by retarmyaviator
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We had a Open shooter the squad this year I think MI state match. He had put every spacer that came with the holster, maybe more. It looked really weird. We kept telling him and finally he asked an RO and fixed it. I don't think he had shot yet. I think it was 3.5 inches from his belt

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