Sarge Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 What would the RO do? Allow you to remove everything (while keeping the gun holstered) so he can re-measure? That would result in a match DQ...... Ummm..... the NROI Ruling says you can remove belt with gun at a safe area or under the supervision of an RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Is 5.2.5 a catch 22? Actually I don't see where it says you will shoot for no score. I am only seeing that the competitor will be told to make it right. BUT, here is the catch 22 part. You are not allowed to move or adjust gear after the start of a match. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 This rule will get destroyed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Is 5.2.5 a catch 22? Actually I don't see where it says you will shoot for no score. I am only seeing that the competitor will be told to make it right. BUT, here is the catch 22 part. You are not allowed to move or adjust gear after the start of a match. ? I interpret the prohibition on moving equipment to mean that GROSS relocation of equipment is not allowed, such as sliding the holster forwards or backwards to get a faster draw from a certain start position. Minor adjustments under RO instruction in order to comply with the rules are clearly permitted. My assumption would be that all previous ROs had inspected the belt equipment and approved of its positioning. Thus, when a shooter presents to me with out-of-compliance belt equipment, my working assumption is that he bumped it inadvertently, and just needs that fact pointed out so he can adjust back to the original position. In other words, I am doing the shooter a favor Edited January 30, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 How do you handle a shooter that comes to your stage with the below the top of the belt issue, but has already shot a number of stages? Just fix it. If he wants to make a big deal about it--RM to Stage whatever and let the RM handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 So you're OK that he has already shot a stage with illegal equipment? Do you think his competitors feel the same way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) So you're OK that he has already shot a stage with illegal equipment? Do you think his competitors feel the same way? How do I know he already shot a stage with illegal equipment? Did I see it with my own eyes? Did another RO see it with his own eyes, and if so why did he not stop the shooter? All I can do as an RO is rule on what I know to have happened, not what I might infer by "joining the dots". Edited January 30, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 If he has to disassemble his holster and add washers, or bend the crap out of it in order to make it legal, I think it is reasonable to assume the holster was illegal for any previous stages he shot. Reading 5.2.5.2, it doesn't list any penalty, only that the problem must be corrected immediately. So if the shooter shoots 23 stages at Nationals with a holster in an illegal position, and the CRO on stage 24 notices it, I think the only thing to be done is to have the competitor fix his equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Measured my blade tech while wearing it-wee bit over 2". Removed it and measured from the inner belt to the grip-1.867" Not sure why the variation, but rule states measurement can be done removed. Check it both ways if it's close. Oh...a wee bit was .119". Yes, it took a bit to do. This is the case with mine too. Just laying on a table with both belts and the gun holstered, it measures "good". But while I'm wearing it, the belt has just enough flex that the weight of the gun will pull the measurement to just over 2". The rule says the measurement can be taken in either position. It does not say that it is the competitors choice. If you run across the wrong CRO and/or RM, they could decide they want it to meet the rule while you are wearing the equipment. If it were me, I would make it legal under both conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 So you're OK that he has already shot a stage with illegal equipment? Do you think his competitors feel the same way? 5.2.5.2 Says nothing about previous stages. It is pretty specific about a competitor who fails the maximum distance and how far the equipment can extend. It says, "immediately adjust to comply with the requirements....The RM may make allowances..... The other competitors feelings are not my concern as the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 As a Production shooter I am already used to this rule from before. However I think it should be eliminated for Open division. What do others think for Limited division? Could cause a lot of hassle there too. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Don't forget about 6.2.5.1 below: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. This looks like it only applies if the shooter uses the illegal equipment "during a course of fire". Since Open division has the same 2 inch requirement, I would presume that it is "not available" and the shooter shoots for no score. You can't very we'll bunp an Open shooter to Open as his penalty for using illegal equipment. I assume 5.2.5.2 is for situations where the shooter has not yet used the illegal equipment during a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Edited my post. Always been a rule but I guess I am the only guy to ever see it get checked. I will be this gets checked more than most think. I doubt staff walks every shooter through the gauntlet at a match but any good RM MD CRO RO eyeballs everybody's gear. Do some sneak by? Sure but not the gear that is way out of spec ok did some checking my rig is illeagel has been for 3 nationals, 2 area . 4 sectionals and club matches to many to number. i will fix my rig today. but I say nobodys checking. oh where do i return my many prizes and plaques.this set up has allowed me to win ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 i do make it if i dont put the inner belt overlap on the holster side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The measurement may be done as worn or removed. 5.2.5.1. Does not say who makes that call. Does not say either way...it gives a choice. Hence, unless other wise told by NROI, we are going to a safe area to remove my firearm. And the official can measure my equipment removed. It will be legal either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Agreed with you -- more often than not, rules are not being enforced. It's USPSA, where knowing, following, and enforcing the rules are discouraged. j/k. haha FWIW...I think the 2" rule should also be removed from Open and Limited divisions. USPSA is a game, a sporting event, not a practical/defensive/tactical shooting practicum. That said, the skills and training used in USPSA certainly can have practical applications. If rules make logic, then put them in and enforce them; if not, remove them and get with the time. Management needs to lead and manage. Edited my post.Always been a rule but I guess I am the only guy to ever see it get checked.I will be this gets checked more than most think. I doubt staff walks every shooter through the gauntlet at a match but any good RM MD CRO RO eyeballs everybody's gear. Do some sneak by? Sure but not the gear that is way out of spec ok did some checking my rig is illeagel has been for 3 nationals, 2 area . 4 sectionals and club matches to many to number. i will fix my rig today. but I say nobodys checking. oh where do i return my many prizes and plaques.this set up has allowed me to win ? Edited January 30, 2014 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Don't forget about 6.2.5.1 below: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, I am not sure the rule applies in this case since the 2" rule is applied to all divisions already. I mean, if you are shooting Open and bust the 2" rule where do you get moved to, double top secret probation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Only if yer wearing a pledge pin. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 CLASSIC!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Ryder Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I hate rules that aren't strictly enforced - seems to me it invites screwing with competitors selectively. I'll be within 2", but frankly if I were a little further out I think I'd benefit...I struggle getting that thumb in position in any dropped holster with the gun inside of 2" that I've tried. And that's fine...but if I'm gonna forgo an advantage I'd like for everyone else to, also, without me having to play bird dog. This guy seems to be "targeted" at times. I am not sure why. He is a stand up guy. It must be that cocky smile with the snuff in his lower lip, oozing confidence. I am glad that you are checking your belt now rather than letting some Gomer call you out about it during a match, messing up your focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Is the magwell considered part of the grip as some single stacks in particular have magwell a as part of the grip or frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 What would the RO do? Allow you to remove everything (while keeping the gun holstered) so he can re-measure? That would result in a match DQ...... Ummm..... the NROI Ruling says you can remove belt with gun at a safe area or under the supervision of an RO. I won't ask a competitor to remove a gunbelt with a holstered gun -- I have safety concerns...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Is 5.2.5 a catch 22? Actually I don't see where it says you will shoot for no score. I am only seeing that the competitor will be told to make it right. BUT, here is the catch 22 part. You are not allowed to move or adjust gear after the start of a match. ? You have to look at 6.2.5.1 also...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Is the magwell considered part of the grip as some single stacks in particular have magwell a as part of the grip or frame? I guess we'll have to wait to see how DNROI and RMs across the nation interpret this rule. My interpretation would be that the "grip" is the portion of the gun that the shooting hand grasps. This most likely would NOT include the magwell or other protrusions. Edited January 31, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Here's a twist....and/or reloading device. Slide stop? If I slide lock and reload, then hit slide lock to chamber a round.....slide lock just became a loading device. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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