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ac4wordplay

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Everything posted by ac4wordplay

  1. Hopefully mods will move this to the IDPA rules section so that some people don't keep getting upset... As to the OP: as described, it sounds like terrible stage design. Ugh! I'd be suspicious of the quality of such a match, and would probably choose to shoot elsewhere.
  2. Seriously? Check the USPSA rule book's appendix A3 glossary definition of "handling" - doesn't it still include the phrase "...while the trigger is functionally accessible" ?
  3. Out of curiosity, how often do ROs here carefully observe the competitor's ULASC process? Who here issues a 10.5.9 when they see it at ULASC? Who pretends not to see it, or to be uncertain that it occurred? Who chooses not to be that observant?
  4. People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns.They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded. I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me. The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it. DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/)that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5. As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at local level need to be on top of it"? I don't see where DNROI said it's not a violation. Brett, I've asked about this in two threads (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375, and http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), and DNROI has commented in both but hasn't directly answered the questions that I've asked. His comments have included (and been consistent in both threads) this: "The present USPSA MG rules do not cover this situation completely, but we are working on making sure we have rules in place to cover this. Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to transport and handle, but muzzle direction upon bagging/unbagging is not directly addressed." That is not a statement that the events described (the events that started the threads) were a violation of USPSA MG rules. If DNROI considered the events to be a violation of USPSA MG rules, then a statement clearly articulating that, and explaining the rules, should have been made, so that competitors and ROs can conduct themselves appropriately. DNROI's statement, and the RM's action at the match that started the threads, both indicate that no violation occurred in their minds. If you can point me to anything that I may have overlooked which indicates that DNROI found the events (that started the threads) to be violations of current (2014) USPSA MG rules, I'd appreciate it - it may help my understanding of the situation. In the Enos thread, MarkCo posted (post #32) this: "USPSA MG Rules, 2014, Rule 1.1 makes what occurred wrong and frankly, when Troy responded to my inquiry, I was so angry with his response I had to let it sit. This is part of what I sent him. Contact your ADs and let's get this fixed. The 4 laws of gun safety are universally used and there is NO excuse for ignoring such. The rules need to be followed, and they were not."
  5. People that are very cautious about sweeping someone with a pistol seem to be careless about it with long guns. They get away with it at local matches and if called on it at big matches say, we always did it like this or, it's unloaded. I don't like seeing the crowd swept or getting guns pointed at me. The clubs at the local level need to be on top of it. DNROI took the position (here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/) that no USPS MG rule was violated and that no unsafe gun handling had occurred. Two other RMI have also taken that position (one by statement, one by action). Top people in the USPSA org seem to think that pointing rifles/shotguns at staff/competitors/spectators isn't unacceptable/unsafe and isn't a violation of existing USPSA MG rules 2.5.2.1 (2.5.2 violations are subject to match disqualification"), or 10.5. As it's not a violation of USPSA rules (according to DNROI), then do "clubs at the local level need to be on top of it"?
  6. Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar.Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong? Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong? I didn't say that I asked why he was wrong. Thanks for answering. I was curious. Some people think that DNROI, simply due to the title, can't be wrong.
  7. Yep, i saw that. Troy is wrong too, but i'll happily do it the way he says for the sake of consistency. At least we will all be wrong together. More importantly, I'll make sure the WSB doesn't allow us to use Troy's wrong opinion, by specifying that both feet must be outside, or something similar. Troy is Director of NROI, what makes you think he is wrong? Are you suggesting that DNROI is incapable of being wrong?
  8. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2? No, I don't...and no one would either....but the point remains, that pistol is cocked...Technically, by the rules, you can't start a competitor using a striker fired gun on a loaded start... So you're (mostly) satisfied that the Glock's condition complies with 8.1.2.2 and will proceed with AYR? Standby, (beep)... But you're not satisfied that the same condition complies with 8.1.2.2 in terms of safely grounding a gun. It seems that either you should not start the Glock competitor when there is a round in the chamber...OR... you should allow a condition that you've recognized (by your action of starting the competitor) as compliant with 8.1.2.2 to be used for safely grounding a gun.
  9. I agree...but how do you hammer/striker down, or even de-cock a Glock before placing it on the ground, other than unloading it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber? What rule says a Glock or other striker fired gun has to be unloaded and de cocked for a competitor to place it on the ground? 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: 8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. Grumpy, Forget about putting the gun down part-way through the stage - this is more interesting and entirely consistent with your point: When you perform RO duties for a Production competitor with a Glock, and you give the MR command, I'd expect them to load the Glock (for a loaded gun start stage), chamber a round, holster (for a holster start stage), and wait for the command sequence of AYR? Standby, (beep). Do you dictate that they must comply with 8.1.2.2 by then unloading, pressing the trigger (to satisfy "de-cocked"), and then inserting the magazine (without chambering a round)? Do you start them from this position (empty chamber, "de-cocked") so that you and the competitor have achieved compliance with 8.1.2.2?
  10. On the USPSA forum (same OP, here: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), DNROI commented on the issue in the OP, and stated: "Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to transport and handle, but muzzle direction upon bagging/unbagging is not directly addressed [by the present USPSA MG rules]." That comment prompted a few more thoughts and questions. The (present) February 2014 USPSA Multigun rule book (http://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2015/RifleShotgunMultigunRules.pdf) covers transportation under 5.2.3 (and there are some requirements and restrictions), but I can't find a rule that states that " Chamber flagged long guns are generally considered safe to [...] handle" - where is this found? This ("safe to [...] handle") includes pointing the gun at staff/competitors/spectators?The (present) February 2014 USPSA Multigun rule book covers casing and uncasing under 2.5.2.1. As it's a sub-section of 2.5.2, and is explicitly permitted at a safety area, it logically follows that it's not permitted outside of a safety area. 2.5.2 includes a requirement that the "firearm is pointed in a safe direction", and states that "violations are subject to match disqualification". Why would handling at a safety area require that the "firearm is pointed in a safe direction", if handling outside the safety area allows firearms to be pointed at people?
  11. The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported. Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling.The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd. Who was the RM? Brett, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues. Respectfully, ac Range Officers need to know who the RM is that says it's OK to point guns at R.O.'s. Brett, That's an excellent point, and I support your reason for wanting a name. I'm not sure how to deal with that. Someone will probably tell you, but I don't plan to identify anybody in this thread. If you've read this thread closely and with your stated concern in mind, then you've paid attention to posts by a couple of RMI and the positions that they've taken. You may find that information useful. Respectfully, ac
  12. The RO who was muzzled (observed by stage CRO) requested that the issue be addressed. The RM was called (he's a current NROI RMI) and the RM decided no action should be taken: such muzzling isn't considered unsafe (?!), and isn't a violation of 10.5 (?!), and the RO wasn't supported. Pointing a gun at someone is unsafe gun handling. The RM made a bad call, I don't care what his credentials are, he was wrong and the guy should have been DQ'd. Who was the RM? Brett, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This thread isn't for identifying the RM - it's for taking a closer look at some rules, handling practices, and safety concerns/issues. Respectfully, ac
  13. Thanks for participating Nik. Your experience with MG may be limited to outlaw matches, but I think your experience with USPSA, USPSA rule books, and MD and RM duties would allow you to form an opinion. In the outlaw MG matches you were involved with, what was the result when/if a firearm was pointed at a staff member or competitor or observer?
  14. Gary, Thanks for contributing, I like this! I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you. ever heard of the rulebook? Terrydoc, Yes, of course, and it usually works quite well at USPSA matches (there is a rule book to reference). I've been to plenty of non-USPSA matches that don't have a rule book - maybe they have a sheet of paper with some rules on it (maybe they don't even have that much formalized) - they rely on word of mouth from the MD. Are you unaware that such matches occur?
  15. Gary, Thanks for contributing, I like this! I imagine that it's difficult to fully/knowingly commit to that if the complete rules aren't freely available. Sometimes many of the rules (or interpretations) are in a MD's or RM's head until a competitor does something, then the "rules" come out of his mouth and surprise you.
  16. There seems to be a noticeable lack of commentary here from some members who are usually quite active/vocal. Interesting. This is also on the USPSA forum (http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1644-multigun-rules/), where other threads have received quite a bit of participation from the President and AD1, both of whom have been contacted and received a link to this thread. Things are (surprisingly?) silent over there on this topic. Where's the love? (Maybe I need to weave in some relevance to PCC or CO to get some attention...) This issue seems significant enough - on several levels - that one may expect it to warrant discussion/participation. Several important and valid questions have been asked, but no valid answers have been received. There seems to be a sharp contrast between the RMI position that pointing guns at people isn't unsafe gun handling or a rule violation, and the membership/competitor position that pointing guns at people is unacceptable. What's up with that?
  17. Eric, Thanks for weighing in. I hope you don't feel targeted - it was semi-coincidental that you recently used the phrase and I posted this question. Best, ac
  18. This was born of a fascinating discussion the other day. Most of us have heard the term "Big Boy rules", and many of us have used it. Some people have a very different interpretation of the phrase's meaning than other people. What does "Big Boy rules" mean to you?
  19. Almost every range that I'm familiar with (which is an admittedly limited number) prohibits pointing a firearm at a person. They recognize it as a violation of one of the four universal rules of safe firearms handling. I wonder if the properties that host USPSA MG matches know/understand the USPSA/NROI position that allows rifles/shotguns to be pointed at people, that USPSA/NROI doesn't consider it unsafe gun handling, and doesn't consider it a violation of USPSA MG rules. If host properties knew this, I wonder if USPSA MG matches would still be welcome there.
  20. I'd say just apply to any firearm not in a holster. Email your AD and let them know your thoughts. Based on Troy's last email to me, I think there will be adjustments in all the rulesets for long guns. I don't see how adjustments to long gun rules were necessary to address the OP issue at that time. Mark, why do you think 10.5 and its language "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to [emphasis added]:" is insufficient? 10.5.1 should also be sufficient - the events in the OP didn't occur inside a safety area, didn't occur in an area deemed safe by a range officer, and the handling didn't occur under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command by a range officer. Seems pretty clear and straightforward to me - 10.5 and 10.5.1 are in the book... but they weren't applied on the range. Why not? And RMIs are still saying the OP events weren't unsafe gun handling, and weren't a violation of any USPSA MG rules. What high-level RMI knowledge explains this? Respectfully, ac
  21. The discussion here http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=232375 and the position of some RMIs, prompted a few people to say they wouldn't work such a match again. That's unfortunate, because most ROs do a tough job pretty well, and skilled help can be hard to find. As the issue in the link above may have an effect on anyone who attends USPSA MG, you may want to weigh in. I enjoyed most of the match and hope to be at the 2017 USPSA MG Nationals.
  22. It will be interesting to see what comes of this. I'm still confused as to how the issue wasn't sufficiently covered by 10.5 and it's language "Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to [emphasis added]:" That seems to address the issue, but several RMI seem to disagree with me (I'd love a valid explanation - for educational purposes).
  23. I haven't read the entire thread. It seems to address slings and using a slung rifle. Not exactly what this thread is about. Is there info relevant to this thread that's contained in your linked thread? Thanks, ac Person in video is breaking the 180, I'm being told by other members of the forum on that thread that it's not a problem. The FB video. It seems that wasn't a USPSA match, so it may be of limited use in this thread. I don't do FB (so I didn't see that video), but as usual, EricM and KurtM had excellent and insightful posts.
  24. Flag or no flag, I would call it unsafe gun handling and I wouldn't work a match with that RM again. It now looks like there are at least three RMI that you would refuse to work a match for. I understand your position.
  25. I haven't read the entire thread. It seems to address slings and using a slung rifle. Not exactly what this thread is about. Is there info relevant to this thread that's contained in your linked thread? Thanks, ac
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