sperman Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Is 5.2.5 a catch 22? Actually I don't see where it says you will shoot for no score. I am only seeing that the competitor will be told to make it right. BUT, here is the catch 22 part. You are not allowed to move or adjust gear after the start of a match. ? You have to look at 6.2.5.1 also...... Nik, I disagree. 5.2.5.2 tells us the course of action if a competitor's equipment fails the requirements. I don't see how you can try and apply another section of the rulebook when there is a paragraph in that section that directly deals with the situation. I don't like it. It sounds like a competitor is allowed to cheat (either intentionally or accidentally) and if they get caught the only thing they have to do is fix the situation. That's how I read it anyway. I would love to hear from one of the NROII guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Here's a twist....and/or reloading device. Slide stop? If I slide lock and reload, then hit slide lock to chamber a round.....slide lock just became a loading device. Correct? I'm pretty sure "reloading device" refers to magazines and moonclips, not any part of the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Pretty sure? I'll bet it's an arb in the making. I inserted a round in the chamber using the slide stop to drive the slide forward. Hence loading the firearm. I can't find, based on the new book, how the arb would lose. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Then your fingers would also be a loading device in that example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd7446 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I would think you could make the argument that a mag release button is either part of the grip, or a reloading device. And every little bit helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Magwell can also be considered a loading device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Pretty sure? I'll bet it's an arb in the making. I inserted a round in the chamber using the slide stop to drive the slide forward. Hence loading the firearm. I can't find, based on the new book, how the arb would lose. What am I missing? I would think you could make the argument that a mag release button is either part of the grip, or a reloading device. And every little bit helps. Magwell can also be considered a loading device. You guys are welcome to try such linguistic gymnastics... I'm just going to hand you an arbitration form and invite you to pay your $100 cash and take your chances. I'm pretty confident 99.999% or competitors will simply adjust their holster when the RO asks them to rather than endure the distraction of an arbitration. Edited January 31, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 It would make for an interesting arb question if it came to that. The key part of 5.2.5 says- — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device. The magwell can be considered part of the grip it can also be considered as a reloading device because it does assist in the loading of magazines into the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 i read it to mean mag or moonclip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 i read it to mean mag or moonclipMe too.And I still think a mag well is part of the grip. The hand does touch it while gripped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Check a production gun in a Bladetech DOH holster. I bet 90% of them are beyond 2", if the user hasn't bent the hanger or installed shims. I know mine was outside 2"...there are pictures on here somewhere to prove it...till I bent it and added the shims.... How can the NROI say it's a legal holster and then you have to modify it to be "legal"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Quote isn't working so well.... Edited January 31, 2014 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Absolutely correct. I added washers to mine and the VZs sit 1 7/8" from the inner belt Where did you put the washers? The only place I can think of that would cause the holster to cant closer to my body is the very bottom on on the offset mount. Is that where you put them? I'm attaching a photo of my holster. I will probably put a washer in there just to play it safe. You'll add the washers to the bottom...and you'll need a longer screw in there as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Check a production gun in a Bladetech DOH holster. I bet 90% of them are beyond 2", if the user hasn't bent the hanger or installed shims.I know mine was outside 2"...there are pictures on here somewhere to prove it...till I bent it and added the shims.... How can the NROI say it's a legal holster and then you have to modify it to be "legal"? NROI doesn't tell you which holsters are legal, and which ones aren't. There is another shooting sport that has (or used to have) a list of legal holsters, but not USPSA. You can run any holster you like, as long as it meets division requirements, and holds the gun in a legal position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) i read it to mean mag or moonclipMe too.And I still think a mag well is part of the grip. The hand does touch it while gripped Exactly my point. 2 inches to the actual grip its self on an open gun could be pushing it with a 90 degree mount and the long racker to go with it. I think realistically the ones who will get questioned or called on it are the ones who have that gun WAYYY out there and are well past the 2 inches not the ones who have it sitting at 2 1/8 an inch from the belt. Its like when I was in highschool with the shorts length rule. No one measured shorts with a ruler but they definitely zeroed in on the girl whos shorts were way shorter than allowed Edited February 1, 2014 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 i read it to mean mag or moonclipMe too.And I still think a mag well is part of the grip. The hand does touch it while gripped Exactly my point. 2 inches to the actual grip its self on an open gun could be pushing it with a 90 degree mount and the long racker to go with it. I think realistically the ones who will get questioned or called on it are the ones who have that gun WAYYY out there and are well past the 2 inches not the ones who have it sitting at 2 1/8 an inch from the belt. Its like when I was in highschool with the shorts length rule. No one measured shorts with a ruler but they definitely zeroed in on the girl whos shorts were way shorter than allowed And so did we! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'll make a few points here and then you can go back to your regularly scheduled arguing. Regarding rule 5.2.5: First, the 2 inch measurement is taken from the grip, which is the part with the scales or grip panels on it, to the inside of the inner belt up against the body. Everybody I've ever asked to adjust their holster did so willingly and without complaint, and I've helped a few people with that adjustment. I've never made that measurement off the body, fwiw. If you continue to read the rules in that section, you'll see that it only mentions having to comply. There is no penalty for non-compliance up to the point that you are requested to make the adjustment. If, after making the adjustment, you move it back when the RM or RO isn't looking, and get caught, then the provisions of 10.6 would apply. I've never had to do that. And, as some of you have mentioned, it's more noticeable when the gun or magazine (reloading device) is WAY out there. Sticks out like a sore holster? It's a simple matter of complying with the rule when or if you get caught, and there is no provision for moving to Open, since Open division shooters must comply as well. I will say this: almost every time I've been called to measure a competitor's equipment, or noticed it myself, the competitor had no idea that there was a 2 inch limit. I don't consider that cheating. Non-compliance once you've been instructed to adjust the equipment is a different matter, however. See 10.6. See 5.2.5.2 and 5.2.5.3. If your anatomical considerations preclude getting the gun or magazine within the 2 inches, the RM has some leeway, and he can also require you to move or adjust your equipment. The grip, as I said, is the grip panel or scale, not the magwell, not the safety, not the magazine release button. Look at the picture, Appendix E2. You'll note that the measurement is high up on the grip, but it's still on the grip, not the safety, cocking lever, scope, etc. The slide stop (or slide release) lever is not a reloading device. Neither are your hands, the magazine release button, the magwell--you get the picture. Magazines, speedloaders, and moon clips are reloading devices. We don't have an official definition of a "reloading device" because it's pretty well spelled out in the appendices, and we didn't think we needed one. Again, look at the pictures in Appendix E2. Also, take note of the text in Appendix E2, which is definitely a part of the rule book: (All Divisions) In accordance with Rule 5.2.5, the maximum lateral distance of the handgun and mag/speedloaders from the inner side of the belt is specified in Appendix D, Item 10. Which says: Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt Handgun and Mags - 2” Note that this applies to all Divisions, and is in the Division requirements section of the Appendices. No mention of "reloading device" in here, so I doubt that an arbitration would get you much, except a lighter wallet. You'd still have to adjust your equipment. Disclaimer: this is my opinion, based on many years of dealing with the rules, competitors, and matches. But I believe it to be the right call. Carry on. PS: A field expedient way to measure is to slide an overlay between the inner belt and the grip or magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) All the silly word games and logic twisting could be avoided if USPSA simply adopted the IPSC wording: 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor's handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor's body, a Range Officer may check compliance by measuring the closest distance between the competitor’s torso and the center of the longest dimension of the handgun grip and/or any reloading devices. 5.2.5.1 The measurement is to be taken while the competitor is standing naturally upright (see Appendix E2). This wording takes account of body shape (i.e. the love handle dilemma), the uncertainty around "on the body" vs. "off the body", and spells out exactly where the measurement is made. The NIH mindset at USPSA is mind boggling sometimes. Edited February 1, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Every major I have shot or worked this was indeed checkedIronically, I've literally never seen it checked at any majors I attended, neither as an RO nor just as a shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Here's a twist....and/or reloading device. Slide stop? If I slide lock and reload, then hit slide lock to chamber a round.....slide lock just became a loading device. Correct? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Is 5.2.5 a catch 22? Actually I don't see where it says you will shoot for no score. I am only seeing that the competitor will be told to make it right. BUT, here is the catch 22 part. You are not allowed to move or adjust gear after the start of a match. ? You have to look at 6.2.5.1 also...... Nik, I disagree. 5.2.5.2 tells us the course of action if a competitor's equipment fails the requirements. I don't see how you can try and apply another section of the rulebook when there is a paragraph in that section that directly deals with the situation. I don't like it. It sounds like a competitor is allowed to cheat (either intentionally or accidentally) and if they get caught the only thing they have to do is fix the situation. That's how I read it anyway. I would love to hear from one of the NROII guys. Scott, you've really got to read the entire rulebook -- the guidance is there: I came in late in the rule because nothing prior to here has any real bearing on what comes next. Assume that a guy comes up to your stage, and his holster is out of position: 5.2.5.2 Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will be required to immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations in these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply. Under 5.2.5.2 you're going to ask him to fix it. If he can't, you'll call the RM who will decide whether he's unable to comply due to anatomical considerations. No move to open here, most likely..... Now we look at 6.2.5.1: 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. Exact same scenario, except that this time you notice the problem while the competitor's shooting a stage. At this point you don't have a choice -- it's a move to open. There's no longer an option to fix it..... Better now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Pretty sure? I'll bet it's an arb in the making. I inserted a round in the chamber using the slide stop to drive the slide forward. Hence loading the firearm. I can't find, based on the new book, how the arb would lose. What am I missing? Three members of the arb committee who agree with you? :P Good luck selling that one...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Read Troy's post, and see if you still agree with that opinion. ETA: I get what you're saying, but I think that is a very unrealistic scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 There is no move to Open. Period. Our way is simpler to measure and to understand, IMO; IPSC language calls for measuring the handgun grip as well. I can imagine the controversy that would cause if we can't seem to decide where to measure here. And, lastly, what is an NIH mindset? Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 My best guess: Not Invented Here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now