Limited Optics

[ddc]

16 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

I wasn't gonna say nothing but I never quite understood the term "limited optics" , limited to what? By who? I understand open class, anything goes. if you can drag it to the line, you can shoot it. Carry optics is also pretty self explanatory, A gun that you would actually put an optic on carry concealed around with you everyday. Production I don't know!!  Because today production gun Generally Come with 15 round magazines. Just thinking out loud.

 

And shred your in serious trouble, Using the word  "fun" To describe Shooting.

 

Wild ass guess 'cuz I wasn't shooting USPSA back then so...

 

The original "Limited" division name may have come from the fact that the division was "limited" with respect to "open".

 

That probably made sense at the time before we had such a thing as "production" because it was certainly much more "unlimited" with respect to Prod.

 

"Limited Optics" may have come about because the division is primarily derived from "Limited".

 

Having said that I'm not sure why the actual name of a division is all that big a deal but I admit some of them are misleading especially to a new competitor.

[Covfefe]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I'm not sure what we are going to talk about once USPSA makes their mind up on the division......

LO / CO overall result comparisons. 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I'm not sure what we are going to talk about once USPSA makes their mind up on the division......

 

Limited  Minor ? 

True carry division?

Combining locap?

Multiple rules stuff?

Classification system?

Fixing production?

Fixing limited?

 

All kinds of fun stuff LOL

[shred]

59 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

Wild ass guess 'cuz I wasn't shooting USPSA back then so...

 

The original "Limited" division name may have come from the fact that the division was "limited" with respect to "open".

 

That probably made sense at the time before we had such a thing as "production" because it was certainly much more "unlimited" with respect to Prod.

 

"Limited Optics" may have come about because the division is primarily derived from "Limited".

 

Having said that I'm not sure why the actual name of a division is all that big a deal but I admit some of them are misleading especially to a new competitor.

I was, that's about how it went down.  There were various precursors with names like 'tactical class', but they settled on Limited (why IPSC chose "Standard" I have no idea).  Limited mods, limited mag cap, limited to 2000+ produced guns.

 

Production originally was out-of-the-box, but then... wasn't.

[usmc1974]

53 minutes ago, shred said:

Production originally was out-of-the-box, but then... wasn't.

In 96 IDPA was basically the same, but then wasn't.

[MadBomber]

4 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I'm not sure what we are going to talk about once USPSA makes their mind up on the division......

Using the practiscore what if feature.  What if I was scored major.

[dgold]

Gosh! This thread is so long

 

From the current rules, I do not see a size limit to LO. Wondering if 5.4" barrel is legal or not.

[MikeRussell]

24 minutes ago, dgold said:

Gosh! This thread is so long

 

From the current rules, I do not see a size limit to LO. Wondering if 5.4" barrel is legal or not.

 

Seeing as CO doesn't have to fit the Prod box, just be on the list... and there's no such thing as a box for Limited, I'm going to say that the 5.4in will be OK. 

[dgold]

23 minutes ago, MikeRussell said:

 

Seeing as CO doesn't have to fit the Prod box, just be on the list... and there's no such thing as a box for Limited, I'm going to say that the 5.4in will be OK. 

Thanks! 

 

[Npoulson]

I saw a lot of comments saying no one is going tondo this or that to their limited gun

they make options to use existing cut to mount a dot as well as you can load 40 minor a ton of guys already do it for 3 gun so they dont have to have two different guns for uspsa and 3 gun. I even have seen a few production guys shoot 40 minor in production. I would have loved to seen this be major i can see why they didnt.

one reason is bc most of the manufacturers are making these types of firearms in 9mm to do major and keep all the manufacturers happy somewhat it would have to include 9 major and after that all the manufacturers would start complaining guns are breaking. I can also see them not doing in due to open.

i think it will be a great addition. I too would have loved to see it added to co but i think it will be fine

[CC3D]

3 hours ago, Npoulson said:

I saw a lot of comments saying no one is going tondo this or that to their limited gun

they make options to use existing cut to mount a dot as well as you can load 40 minor a ton of guys already do it for 3 gun so they dont have to have two different guns for uspsa and 3 gun. I even have seen a few production guys shoot 40 minor in production. I would have loved to seen this be major i can see why they didnt.

one reason is bc most of the manufacturers are making these types of firearms in 9mm to do major and keep all the manufacturers happy somewhat it would have to include 9 major and after that all the manufacturers would start complaining guns are breaking. I can also see them not doing in due to open.

i think it will be a great addition. I too would have loved to see it added to co but i think it will be fine

 

I'll be loading some .40 minor and getting a dovetail optic mount for my limited gun while the division is provisional. Seems like that's what a lot of people will be doing. If the division flops, I can easily go back to limited for little money/ resources invested

[Nathanb]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:56 AM, RobW said:

 

I emailed Area 8, this is what he sent me. HHF to be based on Open division to start, recalibrated every three weeks:

 

 

20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf 91.42 kB · 112 downloads

If they can do new hhf every three weeks for this I hope they intend to do that for everything else too. 

[MHicks]

Are you guys pretty confident that if LO ended up being dropped that they would just go ahead and allow SA guns in CO? Much of a chance that they wouldn't? 

[deerslayer]

3 hours ago, MHicks said:

Are you guys pretty confident that if LO ended up being dropped that they would just go ahead and allow SA guns in CO? Much of a chance that they wouldn't? 

 

I am confident that SA will be allowed somewhere and bought an ambi safety for my CZ, but that is only a $90 investment.  If I had any interest in a new $3K LO gun, my confidence might not be quite as high lol

Edited March 6, 2023 by deerslayer

[Rich406]

35 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Are you guys pretty confident that if LO ended up being dropped that they would just go ahead and allow SA guns in CO? Much of a chance that they wouldn't? 

There is no way to know for sure.

 

opinions here are highly biased depending on the posters opinion on LO.

[RJH]

50 minutes ago, MHicks said:

Are you guys pretty confident that if LO ended up being dropped that they would just go ahead and allow SA guns in CO? Much of a chance that they wouldn't? 

 

If it's dropped, they will put single action guns in carry-ops. They may keep it a separate division, or they may roll carry-ops and lo together and create a new carryops that aligns with IPSC, but I don't believe there's any way that there won't be a place to competitively shoot Sao minor guns once they allow them in. I honestly think in a few years if they didn't change anything it will end up passing carry-ops in participation

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

Are you guys pretty confident that if LO ended up being dropped that they would just go ahead and allow SA guns in CO? Much of a chance that they wouldn't? 

I see absolutely zero chance of guns that aren't on the production list being allowed in CO. I also see zero chance of LO just going away. At worst, it's still going to be more popular than half of the current divisions.

[2011BLDR]

2 hours ago, Nathanb said:

If they can do new hhf every three weeks for this I hope they intend to do that for everything else too. 

But that is a pointless exercise and wast of time... If your already calisifed in anything else you gitng an automatic 1 class below your highest class no mater what % the LO clasifers reflect...

 

[2011BLDR]

3 minutes ago, 2011BLDR said:

But that is a pointless exercise and wast of time... If your already calisifed in anything else you gitng an automatic 1 class below your highest class no mater what % the LO clasifers reflect...

 

The corect wayto do a provisional division is to start the classifer base @zero and not assine any clasifacations until some acatual data is shot.... but eaven that is pointless with the 1 class below rule still in place... 

[marblerocks]

I like the new provisional limited optics division, it's been hashed through fairly thoroughly here. Objectively the game continues to evolve as trends in guns itself evolve. I can count on one hand the number of guns I had with a red dot prior to 2007.

[deerslayer]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I see absolutely zero chance of guns that aren't on the production list being allowed in CO. 

 

That may be exactly what happens in less than a year.  If SA/magwells etc are rolled into CO, my understanding of the bylaws is that CO changes could be effective as soon as January 31, 2024.  If this happens, CO is no longer tied to Production, unless Production is massively changed.  If they do the same thing but call it LO, it will be 2025 before it's official.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by deerslayer

[shred]

USPSA "Provisional" divisions have never not-become permanent, even if some shenanigans were required (looking at you Single Stack ) .  I don't see that changing with LO.

 

 

[Gene_WI]

There are way to many divisions as is. The "gamer gun" things is a complete red herring, everything gets tricked out even  production guns. As a sport we should be trying to eliminate and condense divisions. The idea I have been pitching is having just 5 divisions.

 

1) Low cap irons (10round minor/8round major).

2) Low cap optics (10round minor/8round major) optic required, slide ride or frame, no comps.

3) High cap irons (140 mm mags) major minor scoring hardware rues as we have them now.

4) High cap optics (140 mm mags) minor only slide mounted optics required same hardware rules as 3 (weight limit should be considered).

5) Open (same as now).

 

This would simplify matches, give every gun a division, get rid of the dumb (and dangerous) rule about SA/DA guns starting with hammer down.

 

Possibly add production that is Identical to IPSC rules.

[ddc]

13 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

There are way to many divisions as is. The "gamer gun" things is a complete red herring, everything gets tricked out even  production guns. As a sport we should be trying to eliminate and condense divisions. The idea I have been pitching is having just 5 divisions.

 

1) Low cap irons (10round minor/8round major).

2) Low cap optics (10round minor/8round major) optic required, slide ride or frame, no comps.

3) High cap irons (140 mm mags) major minor scoring hardware rues as we have them now.

4) High cap optics (140 mm mags) minor only slide mounted optics required same hardware rules as 3 (weight limit should be considered).

5) Open (same as now).

 

This would simplify matches, give every gun a division, get rid of the dumb (and dangerous) rule about SA/DA guns starting with hammer down.

 

Possibly add production that is Identical to IPSC rules.

 

If you did that then you might as well rename USPSA as US1911and2011SA as that is what the majority will end up shooting.

I don't think it matters whether or not the 1911/2011 "advantage" is real or just perceived.

Either way people are going to want to get that real or perceived advantage.

There would be a lot of striker fired guns on the market.

Edited March 9, 2023 by ddc
typo

[Gene_WI]

28 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

If you did that then you might as well rename USPSA as US1911and2011SA as that is what the majority will end up shooting.

I don't think it matters whether or not the 1911/2011 "advantage" is real or just perceived.

Either way people are going to want to get that real or perceived advantage.

There would be a lot of striker fired guns on the market.

 If we only look at hardware. Have you seen some of the Shadows that folks are running for CO these days. Thumb rest like an open gun, brass grips, weight pushing 50 oz. Same for the p320 with the tungsten frame. Yet I see plenty of glocks and walthers being shot in CO, both are very competitive guns in competent hands. This game is a hobby for most and it will always have the hardware arms race element in it.