CC3D Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 29 minutes ago, usmc1974 said: After reading all these post and several other related post, I've come to the conclusion, There will never be a perfect division. Not without a complete restructuring of how we define divisions. LO has demonstrated big holes in the way we separate them out currently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 hours ago, GigG said: Because the Division is called ....Optics. It's also called "Limited" and that's obviously a crock. I don't buy the "because iron shooters will mess up the stats". #1- who cares and #2, if they want to shoot it with uncompetitive equipment, then let them. Would they be doing fun wrong or some equally heinous crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennD Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, usmc1974 said: After reading all these post and several other related post, I've come to the conclusion, There will never be a perfect division. Exactly, insert Serenity Prayer. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 3 hours ago, usmc1974 said: After reading all these post and several other related post, I've come to the conclusion, There will never be a perfect division. As suggested previously: Optics Minor/Optics Major and Irons Minor/Irons Major would cover 99%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, ltdmstr said: As suggested previously: Optics Minor/Optics Major and Irons Minor/Irons Major would cover 99%. No, that would just kill Production, Revolver, and Single Stack the rest of the way. Which is the entire reason why the recent rule changes should never have been allowed. Reloading and power are no longer useful practical shooting skills. We're all just gamers now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 5 hours ago, shred said: Why did they double down on the dumb, obsolete 'must have a dot' rule? I don't get it either. The most shocking part of survey results to me was that most people actually voted for optics being required ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It kind of makes sense for provisional division, to get better idea on participation numbers, but makes zero sense that it's still a rule in CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 Gotta agree with Shred you can shoot a limited gun in open, why can’t you shoot one in Limited Optics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 4 hours ago, Dazhi said: Create a 9mm iron division based on production ruleset plus 140mm mags, SAO and magwells, and watch it become the most popular division in 3 years. I think if they created a Limited Minor division before adding CO it would've easily become the most popular division. Now that so many have already switched to optics thanks to high cap CO, I don't know that Limited Minor could overtake it, but it would easily become #2 most popular division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, shred said: It's also called "Limited" and that's obviously a crock. I don't buy the "because iron shooters will mess up the stats". #1- who cares and #2, if they want to shoot it with uncompetitive equipment, then let them. Would they be doing fun wrong or some equally heinous crime? I wasn't gonna say nothing but I never quite understood the term "limited optics" , limited to what? By who? I understand open class, anything goes. if you can drag it to the line, you can shoot it. Carry optics is also pretty self explanatory, A gun that you would actually put an optic on carry concealed around with you everyday. Production I don't know!! Because today production gun Generally Come with 15 round magazines. Just thinking out loud. And shred your in serious trouble, Using the word "fun" To describe Shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 5 hours ago, Dazhi said: Create a 9mm iron division based on production ruleset plus 140mm mags, SAO and magwells, and watch it become the most popular division in 3 years. I would shoot some lim minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whan Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 (edited) Has been discussed in multiple threads before, but as far as a wishlist in terms of streamlining divisions but also keeping it sort of in bounds of what we already have: Limited 10: allow optional slide ride optics, 10 round minor, 8 round major. Kill single stack, revo. Essentially a catch all compliance division that lets everything besides open guns play in mag ban states. Current locap has such minimal participation it makes sense to roll it all together anyways. I shot SS as my main division for 2.5 years, but even I realize its not worth keeping the legacy divisions Production: Try to more closely match IPSC, 15 rounds and 3lb trigger pull limits, must fit in box (and make it so most slide stop thumb rests don't fit). 38oz weight limit Carry Optics: Production rules, but with optic. Must fit in production box that has a cutout for optic. 40oz weight limit to accommodate for optic Limited: as is Limited Optics: As proposed in the provisional division Open: as is PCC: as is This makes it relatively clean, where we can hold Open/PCC nats, Limited/LO nats, and Production/CO nats. Each are distinct games in terms of stage planning and risk/reward, given 170mm+ mags vs 140mm vs 15 rounders. Limited vs LO would be interesting given major PF advantage vs. dot advantage, and you can design stages with more difficult shots where each has advantages. Sort of like Open vs PCC as it currently stands Production and CO would then be good places for new shooters to grab their relatively stock glocks and p320s to be relatively competitive (equipment wise), while having the reduced learning curve of 15 rounds vs. 10 currently in production. Edited March 2, 2023 by whan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 2, 2023 Share Posted March 2, 2023 56 minutes ago, usmc1974 said: I wasn't gonna say nothing but I never quite understood the term "limited optics" , limited to what? By who? I understand open class, anything goes. if you can drag it to the line, you can shoot it. Carry optics is also pretty self explanatory, A gun that you would actually put an optic on carry concealed around with you everyday. Production I don't know!! Because today production gun Generally Come with 15 round magazines. Just thinking out loud. I've never understood getting worked up over the names of divisions. It's just 1-2 words used to refer to a specific equipment ruleset. Doesn't have to perfectly describe every gun that's allowed within that ruleset. Maybe we should just rename all divisions "Division 1", "Division 2", etc. Then people can't complain about name not matching the guns. Not all names perfectly describe the thing they're named for. Why do you drive on a parkway, but park on a driveway? You don't hear anyone demanding we rename these things (And not calling you out specifically on this. I see similar comments all the time and just don't get it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Southpaw said: Maybe we should just rename all divisions "Division 1", "Division 2", etc. Then people can't complain about name not matching the guns. You know what's funny, back in 82 that's about all we had division 1 a 1911 Open had a Had a compensator and maybe adjustable sites and 9 round mag... Then we had division 2 1911 no compensator maybe adjustable sites a 7/8 round mag....lol... Maybe some crazy man shooting a revolver..... lol... And everybody was happy. Well almost everybody you can't make everybody happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 14 minutes ago, usmc1974 said: You know what's funny, back in 82 that's about all we had division 1 a 1911 Open had a Had a compensator and maybe adjustable sites and 9 round mag... Then we had division 2 1911 no compensator maybe adjustable sites a 7/8 round mag....lol... Maybe some crazy man shooting a revolver..... lol... And everybody was happy. Well almost everybody you can't make everybody happy. 1982… no internet 10 channels of cable (if you were lucky) landline , no cell phones gas was under a buck. nostalgia is great, but times have changed, drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Rich406 said: nostalgia is great, but times have changed, drastically. Yeah, and not for the better. Maybe the board should go back and rethink things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, usmc1974 said: Yeah, and not for the better. Maybe the board should go back and rethink things Live in the past if you want.. Edited March 3, 2023 by Rich406 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 54 minutes ago, Rich406 said: Live in the past if you want.. How about, learn from the past if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, usmc1974 said: How about, learn from the past if you want? There’s not a single thing from the 70s or 80s that I’d want to relive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Rich406 said: There’s not a single thing from the 70s or 80s that I’d want to relive. Maybe your life sucks, but I had a great time in the 70s and 80s and I wouldn't mind reliving the fun again. Things made sense, common sense reigned supreme. But this is starting to get to personal and we should stop before we get the thread lock. Edited March 3, 2023 by usmc1974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 3, 2023 Author Share Posted March 3, 2023 Just now, usmc1974 said: This is exactly what I'm talking about. Dude, you are the one taking offense.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, Rich406 said: Dude, you are the one taking offense.. Right!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 The 1980s were the best decade in the history of America, but I am happier with the selection of guns available today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 Enough bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 I'm not sure what we are going to talk about once USPSA makes their mind up on the division...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 9 hours ago, GrumpyOne said: Enough bickering. I'm thinking hi-cap prod / L-minor. Or maybe we start talking about IDPA's lead and allowing comps in everything but Prod. One thing I'm sure of is when this is done we'll continue to talk about equipment rule changes more than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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