RJH Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 55 minutes ago, shred said: It's funny because the original origin of IPSC was to figure out what the best guns and most effective techniques were. "all guns compete together equally". Now that we found the best guns, we have to segregate them off so people don't complain because they have inferior gear. I think the main reason for divisions is to lower the barrier of entry. I agree that we found out 30 or so years ago that open guns were the absolute best thing for the sport. The problem with that is if you don't have an open gun then you can't really compete if that's all there is. So you have divisions, but that's the way most amateur sports work out anyway. Then your divisions end up getting broke down into competitive equity, market changes, etc. But that's not necessarily a bad thing either. One other thought, is that we found out what is the best thing to shoot uspsa/ipsc is. I'm not sure we've ever found out what the most practical handgun is, because of how much the game has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 16 minutes ago, RJH said: One other thought, is that we found out what is the best thing to shoot uspsa/ipsc is. I'm not sure we've ever found out what the most practical handgun is, because of how much the game has changed. this is an important point. open guns are great for shooting stuff fast, but clearly not 'practical'. I'm enough of a fudd that I enjoy competing with something that's at least pretty close to what a cop might carry on his belt all day. CO has gotten away from the practical a little bit with the silly weight limit and extended magazines, but it still looks and feels alot like my carry gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: this is an important point. open guns are great for shooting stuff fast, but clearly not 'practical'. I'm enough of a fudd that I enjoy competing with something that's at least pretty close to what a cop might carry on his belt all day. CO has gotten away from the practical a little bit with the silly weight limit and extended magazines, but it still looks and feels alot like my carry gun. I saw a cop in Salt Lake City Airport carrying a Staccato and 4 170mm mags in a chest rig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: this is an important point. open guns are great for shooting stuff fast, but clearly not 'practical'. I'm enough of a fudd that I enjoy competing with something that's at least pretty close to what a cop might carry on his belt all day. CO has gotten away from the practical a little bit with the silly weight limit and extended magazines, but it still looks and feels alot like my carry gun. Right. My carry-op's gun is a big version of my carry gun. And I even carry my carry-op's gun every once in awhile. But it's plastic fantastic that even with a light weighs less than my 1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, waktasz said: I saw a cop in Salt Lake City Airport carrying a Staccato and 4 170mm mags in a chest rig... didn't want to be outgunned by the local population in gun-friendly utah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 The police of a state should never be stronger or better armed than the citizenry. An armed citizenry, willing to fight, is the foundation of civil freedom. Heinlein, 'Beyond This Horizon." Same character who said "An armed society is a polite society." But say, do you think Limited Optic is likely to percolate down into Steel Challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 10, 2023 Author Share Posted March 10, 2023 5 hours ago, waktasz said: I saw a cop in Salt Lake City Airport carrying a Staccato and 4 170mm mags in a chest rig... Was he cruising along on his Segway? I saw one there a few years ago in full body armor, M4, pistol, taser and enough ammo for an entire squad. The dude was probably carrying 100lb of s#!t and needed the Segway just to get around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stmark73 Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Rich406 said: That statement is ridiculous and completely blind to what’s actually going on. Call them a fad, crutch, or way of the future, but the simple fact is, dots are extremely popular. The vast majority of new shooters show up with some kind of dot. The popularity of dots in USPSA is simply mirroring the hobby in general. Yes popularity of CO came about when mag capacity went up to what ever fits the 140 mm mag. When I started shooting CO, there where only 1 or 2 shooters in the clubs that I shoot at. It exploded when rules for CO became like Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Stmark73 said: Yes popularity of CO came about when mag capacity went up to what ever fits the 140 mm mag. When I started shooting CO, there where only 1 or 2 shooters in the clubs that I shoot at. It exploded when rules for CO became like Limited. This all coincides with the rising popularity of dots in general. And the availability of dot ready guns. Edited March 11, 2023 by Rich406 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) Is there an official announcement of Limited Optics and its division requirements anywhere? I can’t find it on the USPSA website and I haven’t seen anything in the emails from USPSA (and I’m not reading all 56 pages of this thread again to look for it). Edited March 11, 2023 by bdpaz Grammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stmark73 Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 3 hours ago, Rich406 said: This all coincides with the rising popularity of dots in general. And the availability of dot ready guns. If it was a coincidence? Would CO grow rapidly as it is now if it was still using Production rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 8 hours ago, Stmark73 said: If it was a coincidence? Would CO grow rapidly as it is now if it was still using Production rules? CO would still be very popular even if it was a lower capacity. Those who think otherwise are not paying attention to what’s going on outside USPSA. Iron sights are on their way out. Pretend I’m wrong if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennD Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 12 hours ago, bdpaz said: Is there an official announcement of Limited Optics and its division requirements anywhere? I can’t find it on the USPSA website and I haven’t seen anything in the emails from USPSA (and I’m not reading all 56 pages of this thread again to look for it). https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf Starts 5/1/2023. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 1 minute ago, rennD said: https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20221220 USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules Recommendation.pdf Starts 5/1/2023. That rules set is not official, it’s likely changed a little bit. No one will know for sure until the last board minutes are released and an official announcement is given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunachaser Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 So this is Carry Optics for SA only and a mag well, although DA/SA is allowed but no need for DA first shot. I'm I missing some thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 Minutes are out now and the LO provisional rule-set is included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Tunachaser said: So this is Carry Optics for SA only and a mag well, although DA/SA is allowed but no need for DA first shot. I'm I missing some thing? It is not SA only. Any CO gun will meet the requirements of LO. You can move from CO to LO and add a magwell, thumb rest and racking lever though none of these are mandatory. I suspect a large number will move from CO to LO just to get the magwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 5 hours ago, Rich406 said: CO would still be very popular even if it was a lower capacity. Those who think otherwise are not paying attention to what’s going on outside USPSA. This is my assessment also, the fact the ProdOptics is growing rapidly in IPSC validates this position. Had USPSA kept the original concept, it would have grown, it took several years for Production to catch on too. A true ProdOptics division along with a true Limited Optics division (Major/Minor) would have complemented each other very well. The new LO is essentially the same as CO with a magwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Tunachaser said: So this is Carry Optics for SA only and a mag well, although DA/SA is allowed but no need for DA first shot. I'm I missing some thing? No; but you can add a magwell, thumb-rest and racking lever. I think the first of these will be significant. Most CO guns have an optional magwell either from factory or 3rd party. There is less skill required for a reload with a magwell so this appeals to the hobby shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 15 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: Minutes are out now and the LO provisional rule-set is included. Got a link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, RJH said: Got a link? Members Area, BOD Minutes… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 (edited) It’s interesting that the minutes say optional for level 2 in 2023. Optional for level 3 in 2024. Nationals maybe in 2025. I read that as won’t be offered at level 3 area matches in 2023. or maybe it means optional for level 2 & 3 for 2023, and mandatory level 2, optional for level 3 in 2024??? Poorly written. Edited March 11, 2023 by Rich406 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 35 minutes ago, Rich406 said: It’s interesting that the minutes say optional for level 2 in 2023. Optional for level 3 in 2024. Nationals maybe in 2025. I read that as won’t be offered at level 3 area matches in 2023. or maybe it means optional for level 2 & 3 for 2023, and mandatory level 2, optional for level 3 in 2024??? Poorly written. I don't think match directors are mandated to recognize provisional divisions, thus the "optional" wording. The way I read it, LO will be available at L2 matches in 2023 if the MD desires and at L3 matches in 2024 if the MD wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stmark73 Posted March 11, 2023 Share Posted March 11, 2023 4 hours ago, Rich406 said: CO would still be very popular even if it was a lower capacity. Those who think otherwise are not paying attention to what’s going on outside USPSA. Iron sights are on their way out. Pretend I’m wrong if you want to. I'm not saying that CO would not have become popular. What I meant was it won't have that boom in participation in USPSA if it not have been for the round capacity increase. What's going on outside USPSA is advancement in technology for the common people. USPSA players use it to gain advantage on their arms race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich406 Posted March 11, 2023 Author Share Posted March 11, 2023 20 minutes ago, deerslayer said: I don't think match directors are mandated to recognize provisional divisions, thus the "optional" wording. The way I read it, LO will be available at L2 matches in 2023 if the MD desires and at L3 matches in 2024 if the MD wants it. If that’s the case I can’t think of any reason for it not to be allowed in all matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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